Runner at 2B steals early for 3B...P looks at runner and does a straight pickoff move to 3B without stepping off the rubber. Is this legal or a balk? Can you reference the Federation rule please?

Three umps called it a balk and one ump said it was legal this past weekend. The "legal" ump said the other guys misinterpreted the rule.

I believe it is a balk. A pitcher can not throw to an un-occupied base

I'll go with the ump that said this was a legal move assuming the pitcher is in the set position and has not made a motion toward the plate to deliver the pitch (time of pitch). Remember in high school baseball a pitcher may make a play on the runner stealing regardless of where he is in the base path.

In major league rules I believe they still state that the runner has to be more than half-way to the base he is trying to steal before the pitcher can make a play on him at that base.

In high school as long as the pitcher has followed the proper procedures as outlined in Rule 6.1 Art. 3 then he has made a legal move.

Now if the runner was not stealing from second and the pitcher throws to third, an unoccupied base, then you have a balk.

This is not a balk. In HS if the runner breaks at all then the pitcher may throw to an unoccupied base to make a play. In pro rules there is no distance required but the runner must make a real attempt to advance. He may stop and return and it not be a balk but, if all he does is fake from his lead it will be balked.

Any umps out there care to weigh in?

Michael S. Taylor is an umpire. And I believe Pantherproud is also.....MST's and Pantherproud's posts on this subject are correct. No balk...

We seem to have lost some of our more identifiable umpires who used to post......not one post from Bluezebra in a long time, although I know he frequents other umpiring boards. Hopefully we can cultivate new umpire posters like rookieblue and powerade80 to hang in here....

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Any umps out there care to weigh in?

ok, it's not a balk. He legally threw to a base to "put out or drive back a runner" as the book requires.

no balk. if the runner was stealing in the opinion of the umpire, the pitcher had the right to throw to third as long as it was done properly since the situation indicates the pitcher was in contact with the rubber.

I agree with all umps this is not a balk.
I do have one question you make reference to a "straight pick off" move. Do you mean he just thru to 3rd, or did he get distance and direction? (i.e. did he step to 3rd when he threw)

I know that you can lift your leg and throw to 3rd on an attempted steal of 3rd but all of my assistant coaches insist that if there is a runner on 1st, he decided to steal and if the pitcher uses a slow leg kick, swings and fires to 2nd, that that is a balk. Can anyone confirm that??

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Runner at 2B steals early for 3B...P looks at runner and does a straight pickoff move to 3B without stepping off the rubber. Is this legal or a balk? Can you reference the Federation rule please?

This is a legal move. As long as the pitcher is making a play on the runner - legal.

quote:

Originally posted by Force_Balk:
I know that you can lift your leg and throw to 3rd on an attempted steal of 3rd but all of my assistant coaches insist that if there is a runner on 1st, he decided to steal and if the pitcher uses a slow leg kick, swings and fires to 2nd, that that is a balk. Can anyone confirm that??

This is called the wheel move, and it is legal as long as the pitcher is making a play on the runner. If the runner does not steal, it would be a balk for throwing to an un-occupied base.

Too funny, saw a kid perform the wheel move to make a play on the runner and the young umpire warned the pitcher that it is a balk. Young umpire does not remember the ",except when making a play on a runner." part of the rule.

quote:

This is called the wheel move, and it is legal as long as the pitcher is making a play on the runner. If the runner does not steal, it would be a balk for throwing to an un-occupied base.

If I am reading this correctly, and the consensus opinion seems to be that it is not a balk, then I have this question.

With a LHP, many coaches teach runners on 1st to go on "first move". Would it not be possible for the LHP from the lift position, simply wheel for the throw to second? I have never seen this done and assume that if a LHP tried this it would be called a balk. (This is in American Legion ball).

If this were true, then the instruction to go on first move against LHP would be "stupid". Maybe one of you umpires can clarify this for me.

(Note my son is LHP with a pretty decent pickoff move. But some of the better teams do tend to go on first move when they are running. But if it were legal for him to wheel to second, I can't see any team going on first move more than once.)

As a followup question. I am quite sure that the umpires around here would call a balk in the above scenario. Is there a potocol for determining the umpire's interpretation prior to the game?

With your LHP he may do two things once he starts his motion. If the runner breaks on first move then he may either throw to first and let F3 throw to second or if he may roll to second and pick him there. Many coaches do teach to go on first move and it is incorrect.

Yes, the LHP may continue around and throw to second. Yes, do this once and you will stop the runners from breaking on the first move.

The balk rule is one of, if not the, most mis-understood rule in baseball. If the umpire has not studied the rule and had experience with balk situations, they may call a balk on what they "think" is a balk, instead of what is a balk by rule.

Chris,

Agreed!! Keeping in mind that there are 30 infractions that are balks on pitchers and that at most only 5-6 are called by the vast majority of umpires.....

Understanding what is and what is not a balk...then applying that to real world baseball is what we, as umpires, get paid for......

welcome to the board Chris....

quote:

As a followup question. I am quite sure that the umpires around here would call a balk in the above scenario. Is there a potocol for determining the umpire's interpretation prior to the game?

I appreciate the comments. Always learning something new on HSBBWEB!

Could anyone comment on the above question, or is this a case of "wait until it happens and see the results."

In our case, LHP to F3 to F6 works most of the time and effectively stops the other team from running. But the ability to throw to second if they are going on first move would indeed stop them altogether. I'm not a coach, so just curious about protocol for something like that.

No, there is no protocal for determining what an umpire does, or does not, know.

Asking him might get you an early departure time!

Agreed again with Chris since there is no way to predetermine the umpires view...

Much of this answer I took from a previous answer that Piratefan and I gave earlier this year....and to that....

There is little use of trying to determine what will be called when it comes to umpires as there are so many levels of umpires.

Trying to predetermine a balk call wouldn’t be worth much since the next umpire you run into may not allow what I might....

In the 2 umpire system, both umpires are checking a number of items on each pitch....the movement you got away with last inning might have been when the umpire glances at the runner and missed it.......yet when you try it an inning later, he sees it and balks you......

The higher you go in baseball the less you can get away with. A PONY league pitcher might get away with movement that will get you balked in HS and a HS pitcher might get away with movement that would be balked in college and so on up the ladder to the pros...

So much of this depends on the level of education and experience of the umpire you have doing your game.....

And Pirate fan added:

the skill level of the umpire will determine what is called a balk. If an umpire can't explain it, then he probably will not call it.

You would like to think that all HS level umpires are trained and experienced, but that just isnt the case. You will find umpires of all levels doing most levels of youth and HS ball. I know this is a frustration for parents, coaches and players alike....but it is also frustrating for us Umpires when paired up with an umpire of lesser qualifications....

Hope this helps.