OK, high school freshman ball . . . routine fly ball to center, fielder camps under the ball, only he's come in one step too many and has to reach back for the ball at the last second. He ends up failing to make the catch, not even getting a glove on the ball. There is no wind and lighting isn't a factor. It's generally assumed if the ball doesn't touch leather no error has been committed, but in this case the ruling is E8. Agree or disagree?

Agree.

Contact with leather is not required.

Contact with leather does tend to eliminate all doubt, but even then not always. But in non-contact situations the test is still whether the play should've been made with ordinary effort.

Hit would be scored if you had things like severe sun, gusty wind, etc. Or when the OF was still on the run. But in the situation you describe, anywhere above LL level it's an E.

The NFHS rules don't define error in any great detail. However, OBR rule 10.12(1a)Comment gives good guidance:
"....The official scorer shall charge an outfielder with an error if such outfielder allows a fly ball to drop to the ground if, in the official scorer’s judgment, an outfielder at that position making ordinary effort would have caught such fly ball."

The standard of ordinary effort applies generally to scoring situations, including infield play.

The idea that if the fielder doesn't touch the ball, it isn't an error is just a rule of thumb which in some cases can serve to suggest that more than ordinary effort was required to make a play. It is definitely not the actual rule. My advice is to apply the actual rule-- ordinary effort-- and eliminate did/did not touch the glove as a consideration.

In this case, I agree its an E-8. My general rule is if no weird weather situation and the outfielder camps under the ball or appears to have plenty of time to get to the ball, but doesn't make the catch, I'll call it an E.

How about the case where there is blinding sun, the outfielder has a glove up and is tracking the ball, but loses it, bends away and the ball drops. I've always considered this case 'more than ordinary effort' and scored those plays as hits (even if the fielder gets a glove on it or is hit by the ball).

Same with a 40 mph wind on a pop up to the infield. If the ball is being blown all over the field on a windy day, I've scored these as hits on rare occasion as 40 mph winds don't happen every day.

I will always score the routine pop-up where three guys let it drop between them as an E, its just difficult sometimes to decide who its on... I normally will give it to the player who's zone its in unless another player has been calling wildly and then gives up, at which point I'll give the error to that player.

On the pop up where the infield is back, the ball is hit right behind the pitcher's mound, all players sprint in but nobody gets to the ball, its a hit.

There are so many variables to consider...

These are all great comments and can't disagree. As I described, this fit the description of reasonable effort as wind, lights, and sun weren't factors. Unfortunately, too many folks cling to the notion that if it doesn't touch leather it's not an error.

quote:

Unfortunately, too many folks cling to the notion that if it doesn't touch leather it's not an error.

Especially the batter and his Mom and Dad.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

When do you know if he lost it in clouds, sun, etc? That would be a hit also...

Caught an interesting note in the paper the other day. If anyone saw the Red Sox-Yankees game on TV last weekend, Pedroia hit a fly near the RF line that Nick Swisher just whiffed at. The ball landed fair and bounced into the stands. Initial scoring was a double.

Some days later, it was changed to an E on Swisher, even though he never touched it.

The point being, it's not official until it's official. In MLB, you can even have scorers talking to the players afterwards, reviewing film, etc. before the ink is dry.

In MLB, they have access to instant replays, post game interviews, league office help, etc.

The rest of us have to decide real time, but you can use some of the same processes. When playing a rival, I've actually texted a fan of the other team, who had a better angle, and got their opinion. Walking over and asking might seem easier, but the answer is influenced by who's sitting around them. A subtle text message, "Was that a H or E?" allows an equally subtle response.

As for Catch43's question, there is no easy answer. I watch the fielder's reaction. After the play, take a quick glance to where the sun is, which way the flag is blowing, determine if any birds appear to be flying in the opposite direction from where they are moving, etc. I then make the ordinary effort call.

We played a few games where us fans were screened from the wind by the stands, yet the flags were tearing, trees were bending and I honestly saw a foul ball that was directly over my head 10 rows behind home plate at one point, end up landing fair in front of home plate. Ended up a FC as there were batters on and less than 2 outs, so an easy force was made. Looked like a comebacker in the book...

I always use this "Should he have made the play?" Yes. Error.

Well considering I'm the scorekeeper when I'm not playing or if I'm DHing and I'm the one keeping track of stats I often am faced with decisions like this.

If I know a player's ability well enough that I know whether or not he would've made the play it may be tougher on that player. I usually don't change decisions in the book afterwards if I'm not scoring unless someone who isn't used to it is scoring and I know what play it was.

I've been given grief on the stats about someone having more double when they really advanced on a throw or an error, or someone claiming that it wasn't an error or they have more SBs when they really advanced on a wild pitch or PB.

In fact our last game I was scoring and we had a player that came and asked me after he came back to the dugout and asked me "Was it a hit?" the first one was right at the LF hit his glove at his chest and he dropped it then he slid for some reason after and he whined that well he slid so I get a hit. Then his next time up he hits a ground ball that goes right by the 3B he argues well he didn't touch it so I get the hit, but the 3B just missed it with his glove so I gave it an error since the 3B didn't even have to move.

It's annoying when you've got people pestering you to help their stats. Oh btw (and since I don't score when I play the field) while we're mentioning it, only one error all year , least on the team.