18U division

Runners on 2nd and 3rd 2 outs. Batter singled to centerfield. Runner on 3rd scores easily. Centerfielder makes strong accurate throw to plate. Catcher catches ball with with runner from 2nd trying to score still 4 strides from plate (clearly going to be out) however runner destroys catcher and he drops the ball. Next batter pops up to infield for 3rd out.

Batter who singled to center field is credited with 2 rbi's. Pitcher is charged with 2 earned runs

I believe this is incorrect. Batter should be credited with 1 rbi and an error should be charged to the catcher, Pitcher is charged with 1 earned run against him. Scorekeeper claims no error because of the violent contact and because no error batter gets 2nd rbi. Pitcher is charged with 2 earned runs.

I hate to tell ya, but your SK got it right. Where does it say anywhere in OBR- Rule 10.12, that the Scorekeeper could change an error to anyone on defense in the play you described?

If the SK can’t charge an error, the RBI’s stand, and the ER’s stand.

Many scorekeepers would score an error on the catcher but that is up to the scorekeeper. If he doesn't score it as an error then (as SK says) --- The RBIs and the ERs stand.

Isn't this like a runner taking out the 2nd baseman on a double play while trying to throw to 1st? I don't think you can assume the out at home would be made so the run should be earned.

quote:

Originally posted by jfsbndr:
Isn't this like a runner taking out the 2nd baseman on a double play while trying to throw to 1st? I don't think you can assume the out at home would be made so the run should be earned.

Everything revolves around whether or not the SK charges an error on the play. Fungo’s correct in that some SK’s would score an E on the C, but that’s really not something that should be written in stone.

Would anyone in this world charge Ray Fosse with an Error on the Pete Rose collision? Personally, I try very hard to take each incident as they come, but there are some folks who believe that if an out isn’t made when it could have been, someone has to be popped with an error.

Luckily, last year MLB finally defined what ORDINARY EFFORT was, and if an SK actually takes that into account when scoring hits and errors, a lot of the problems would go away.

FI, on the play we’re discussing, would a catcher of average skill in that level of play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions, have held the ball and made the out?

Remember, its AVERAGE skill, not the best or the worst. Also its all the catchers in what you described as 18U. I’m assuming that means some kind of tournament, but you have to be careful. Mebbe it was an 18u summer rec league as opposed to the best 18YO’s in the state.

Other SK’s can do what they please. Me, if its more than incidental contact, I have a real difficult time charging an error.

Kind of surprising in that most 18u teams play under NFHS rules, even if somewhat modified.

NFHS would require the runner to be called out and ejected. Problem solved.

There is a technique for tagging a runner without a collision. But I don't think you can penalize a catcher who's willing to stand in front of an oncoming train and take it for the team. Since for whatever reason the NFHS standard was either not in effect or simply not called, I would agree with your scorekeeper on this play as you described it.

Unless my son was pitching at the time!

Nice catch Milo.

The trick is, in order to hope to make an accurate judgment, you have to not just be there, but you have to be watching the play very closely, and that’s not as easy as people think. Trying to come to a conclusion that can’t be refuted with only the info we have to work with is impossible. The best anyone can do is guess, based on the rules and his/her experience.