Disclaimer: This is not a question from a disgruntled parent, just interested in understanding the possible strategy at work.

I have a nephew on a team that's done well during the season against good competition, but their tendency to leave runners OB over and over is frustrating. Games that should have been blowouts are squeakers because of the LOBs.

According to the team stats,the top of the lineup has pretty good OB% (lots of BB), but BAs run as follows: .286/.143/.231/.250/.203 with slugging % close or below. Then there are a couple of guys with OB% over .500 each, BAs of .361 and .377 with slugging % of over .450. They alternate batting at position 7 & 9/10 in the lineup. Seems they end up being secondary lead-off pretty frequently. Their number of at bats isn't significantly different from the top guys. One has the second most steals on the team.

I thought the rule of thumb was to keep contact guys (higher BAs) somewhere in the top half of the lineup, but maybe that's too simplistic. Is there a strategy at work here that I've not seen?

Quillgirl;

when we travel with our teams to Australia, it is important that we use the talent of our American to be competitive. We are playing 12 games in 15 days and every game is important.

We need our #1 and #2 hitters to obtain a .500 on base %. #3 hitter should be a left handed hitter to provide the opportunity to hit to RF and send the runner to 3b. There are 11 ways to score from 3b with less than 2 outs.

#4; #5 and #6 should have the mental desire to drive in runs. We also teach "how to hit a 3 run HR".

#9 hitter should also have an on base % of .500. Every 4th game we flip the #9 hitter with the #1 hitter.

Our coaches are pro scouts and we discuss this strategy after each game. We will also report to our web site <www.goodwillseries.org> the success of our players in execution of our strategy for the benefit of college coaches.

Bob Williams

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Consultant:
Quillgirl;


#4; #5 and #6 should have the mental desire to drive in runs. We also teach "how to hit a 3 run HR".

I have coached high school baseball now for 10 years and I have never heard of someone teaching how to hit a 3 run homerun. Can you elaborate on this idea please.

Here's an interesting idea. Last year we lacked a true leadoff hitter. I hit my best hitters 1 and 2. I put guys who were our best non-power, on base guys 8 and 9. It seemed to have worked. Our best 2 hitters seemed to come to the plate all the time and they still had the same 2 guys hitting in front of them as they did when I was hitting them 3 and 4 (with the excpetion of the 1st inning obviously). Plus with a total lack of scouting, we had our best two power hitters hitting with a drawn in 3rd baseman because they were afraid of them bunting.

Coach:

If he is a left handed hitter, have the hitter
"take away" the pitcher's pitches. Reduce his ability to throw strikes to one pitch.

Into the .400 hitting zone [Ted Williams graph]

Left handed hitter like the ball down [waist to knees]

Right handed hitters like the ball up. Tell the hitters to focus on this one pitch, until 2 strikes, then "through the middle".

A coach needs to provide confidence to the hitter
with a "green" light for this one pitch.
Eddie Murray said "you will have one good pitch each time at bat" BE READY!!

BOB

You can have all the theories you want, but you also have to know your players. Here's an example.

This year our HS team had a guy who was an outstanding athlete but he lacked baseball experience. He got injured early last season and basically didn't play at all in 2007.

This guy has a solid swing, bat speed/power, and lots of leg speed. To look at him you'd think, bat him 3d, maybe even leadoff.

Coaches put him in the 9 hole -- "second leadoff". It took the pressure off and let him settle into hitting at the varsity level. After about 5 games he took off on a tear.

They promoted him to the 2 spot. He went about 1 for his next 15.

Dropped to the 7 slot. He promptly went on a tear and thus was left there the rest of the season. Ended up hitting .400 with lots of RBI and extra-base hits. Now being looked at as a potential late recruited walk-on for mid-major D-1's.

You could've left that guy where he profiled and he might've floundered the rest of the year. Some guys just don't want the high profile slot in the order, and do so much better when allowed to be role players.

MILO;
WHEN HE HIT DOWN IN THE LINE UP THE OPPOSING COACH [HE WAS PROBABLY CALLING THE PITCHES] signals ONLY FAST BALLS.

Sometimes to upset the opposing coach bat your players 1-2-3 the 1-2-3 and 1-2-3.

Bob

Very interesting. More things to consider than I realized.
Thanks!

quillgirl.

Couple of questions.

How are you relating the batting positions to what happened? Is someone tracking that data and reporting on it, or is it that people are talking about what they perceive to be happening.

What makes you believe batters lower in the lineup don’t have significantly less PA’s than those in the upper positions? Go to http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/los1.pdf
Pages 24, 32, and 43.

Does that team have anything like that so they can actually say for a fact what’s happening by batting position? Although those numbers are for a HSV team for 2 full seasons, 64 games), it should be pretty easy to see that the #9 position usually gets 1 less PA per game, and each position above something a little less. Don’t use AB’s to judge things like this because the #8 position may well have more AB’s than the #6 position.

There is a problem using BA’s in the 1st place because hits are so subjective, but it’s a problem that’s even worse the lower the level. OBP is a much stronger metric for measuring hitters.

Good luck finding out what the strategy is! I’m gonna guess you’ll find it has a lot more to do with perceptions rather than numbers.

Skeep,

These are stats from the official book. I don't know about the details, how they keep the numbers, or what the perceptions are. I believe they are fairly strict about what counts as a hit vs. an on base on error. This is a competitive 17U travel team, not a school team. The top of the line up varies from 68-78 PAs. The bottom guys have around 65-70. Why? The coach subs a couple of the top-of-LU guys sometimes (plus a couple of absences.) The bottom-LU guys are rarely out of the order. One is a DH and pinch runner when taking his rare turn out of the lineup, so gets credit for additional hits and steals.

From the comments, I understand better the rational behind alternative strategies that go beyond ordering the lineup from highest to lowest stats. There are more sophisticated and complex considerations at work, most likely.

quote:

These are stats from the official book. I don't know about the details, how they keep the numbers, or what the perceptions are.

The only reason I ask is, its pretty darn rare to see any statistics for that age group broken out by batting position. Unless they are, its really difficult to make many factual statements about it.

quote:

I believe they are fairly strict about what counts as a hit vs. an on base on error.

Do you know what rules they’re playing under?

quote:

This is a competitive 17U travel team, not a school team. The top of the line up varies from 68-78 PAs. The bottom guys have around 65-70. Why? The coach subs a couple of the top-of-LU guys sometimes (plus a couple of absences.) The bottom-LU guys are rarely out of the order. One is a DH and pinch runner when taking his rare turn out of the lineup, so gets credit for additional hits and steals.

OK, I see what you’re saying and why you’re saying it. You’re talking about individuals in the batting position rather than just the batting position.

quote:

From the comments, I understand better the rational behind alternative strategies that go beyond ordering the lineup from highest to lowest stats. There are more sophisticated and complex considerations at work, most likely.

You betcha Red Rider! While it is possible to let the computer do the lineup based on numbers alone, so much has to do with the MIX of players and their skills.

Over the years I’ve had the computer do lineups based on what people think is important, and believe me, as many people as there are, that’s how many different ways! Here’s just 3. http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/lineup.pdf

There could be a million different ways to do it too, and who’s to say which one would be the RIGHT way? I’ve done them many other ways too, and to tell the truth, they’re no better and no worse than what the head coach comes up with. The only real difference is, once the coach determines what the criteria are, the computer is totally objective! All it does is compute the numbers and throw up the results, where a coach might take into consideration a player that was in the middle of a hot or cold streak, going through a personal crisis of some type, injured, or a great many other things.

Consultant....When I went back and looked at my Science of Hitting book and what Ted Williams had to say about his hitting chart I did not see the 3 run home run mentioned. All I saw was him talking about batting average. Further more Williams was successful as a left hand hitter hitting the away pitch, which you said to take. I am confused. Are you not limiting the potential of players by advocating them to pull the ball which seems to go against what Ted Williams said. I agree that you will only get 1 good pitch per at bat. However if that pitch is belt high away to a left hander wouldn't one of your hitters take it?

Coach;

When a player has the confidence and the ability to hit the HR, He can do it over the left field or right field fence. When I batted off of Bob Gibson, he hit my bat and the ball went over the right center fence.

Probably a stiff wind out. Weather conditions are very important and certain field have a definite "carry" to the ball.

This is why "on the field" BP is important.

Do you have the CD on Ted Williams talking hitting? It is "outstanding". His .400 hitting zone is the 3 run HR zone.

Question: will a hitter have a longer look at the ball, if he off the plate or on the plate???

Please contact "Rare sportsfilms".

Bob
PS: We may have a "Rays" work out in Orange County in 30 days, maybe we can meet.

Would love to meet up with you when you are in the OC

Answer: I would say on the plate because you have a closer look at the ball.

Coach;
actually "off the plate"

when you swing you can meet the ball over the front part of the plate. when you crowd the plate you need to meet the ball slightly in the front of the home plate.

Do you know Jake Wilson,Tampa Bay scout?

When he can set the time and location, we can meet. My son will have the SSK bats that he sells to Manny Ramirez and other.

My web site <www.goodwillseries.org> will have my contact e-mail and phone #.

Bob

quote:

Are you not limiting the potential of players by advocating them to pull the ball which seems to go against what Ted Williams said.

I don't know for sure what Ted Williams might have said, but I do remember what he actually did!

Ted Williams was a dead pull hitter who hardly ever hit the ball to the opposite field. In fact, teams would play the SS on the right side of the infield against him.

quote:

Originally posted by socalhscoach:
…Further more Williams was successful as a left hand hitter hitting the away pitch, which you said to take. I am confused. Are you not limiting the potential of players by advocating them to pull the ball which seems to go against what Ted Williams said. …

I think you have something confused.

Are you saying the away pitch CAN’T be pulled with any authority? If you are, I believe you need to watch a lot more MLB.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen replays of a batter hitting a pitch completely out of the strike zone away, but pulling it with great authority, even for a home run. Is that NORMAL? Absolutely not! But it isn’t RARE either.

My understanding of a pulled ball, is one that is hit to the left side of a line drawn from home plate’s point, over the middle of the rubber and over the middle of 2nd base for a RHB, and to the right side of that line for a LHB. Now maybe your definition is to divide the field into 30 degree segments, and a pulled ball can’t be in the middle segment.

But whatever the case, think about what causes a ball, ignoring horizontal rotation, to go into a specific direction. Assume the ball is thrown straight down that line from 2nd base to the middle of home plate’s point. If they meet squarely, when the bat and the ball meet, the direction the ball is going to go depends on the angle the bat is facing.

IOW, if it’s a RHB and the bat is exactly perpendicular to the ball flight when they meet, the ball is going to travel mostly right back along that line. However, if the bat head is close to the pitcher than the knob and making a 30 degree angle, chances are the ball will go into left center field.

So why is it that a batter can’t get that angle on a ball an inch outside of the strike zone? I’ll certainly admit that it would be a lot more likely for a fellow of Ted Williams skills, size, and the distance he stood away from the plate than a 5’4” 8YO LL player who likes to stand as far from the plate as allowed, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done by anyone.