I would probably call the dogs off around 11 or 12 runs up. You keep mentioning basketball and football but these are different sports where there is no mercy rule to stop a game and save a pitcher for either a tournament game or maybe for a conference game two days later. I agree you should probably stop fullcourt pressing up 30 pts with 2 minutes left because there is no mercy rule and obviously you have won the game. Yes, throwing a deep bomb with 2 minutes left in the fooball game up by 42 pts is probably bush because once again there is no mercy rule and you could just run the ball. An 8 run lead in the fifth inning or late in the game is not a given and if you can end it right now then there is no reason you shouldnt do that. Now if it was 17-0 and they were doing that then you may have a case. Just my two cents. I hope you have a good season.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25:
I realize I am in the minority with my views (at least on this site), and we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks guys for all of your replys.

hahaha...so you ask a question and don't get the answer you were looking for and you agree to disagree? Too funny.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25:
No Way Guys, we take full responsibility for our play. We do not allow excuses! Yesterday in practice the players hopefully learned a lesson, and payed a price for not showing up to play.

Nicholas, I'm an old veteran of the game. I've been in a few hundred wins (600+) and only about 150-200 losses. So, I hope that you think I've been around some. I've coached baseball in this country and was once honored to represent our country abroad in both Lithuania and Russia. You keep saying that you want to make sure that the game is taught right. Right in who's estimation? Who's unwritten rules are you going by? Who made you the judge on all of this? You have some great baseball people in this thread. I read some of their responses both in this thread and elsewhere on this site and to be honest, they have given you very sound advice. I don't want to offend any of them by leaving their names out but Will, Redbird et. al. have no stake in this and they have stated that this rule of 8 and no bunting and no stealing isn't an UNWRITTEN RULE. Heck, the advice to worry about your team is great advice. You don't have any control over the opponent. Control what you do. You can take a situation like this and make it what you want. My bet, and agreeing with the others, is that they wanted to short game you so that it would end. They'd save thier pitcher's arm and they'd get their players home. More than once or twice I've done this and no one has ever said a word. Now, if it were a larger lead and we had the game won, then, that might have been different.

Nicholas, I used the above quote from the first page and wanted to address this. So, are you suggesting that you punished these kids? That is what I take out of this. So, did you do baseball which they sorely need or did you run them? Did you run them telling them how much heart they lacked, how they backed off and how they are losers? Nicholas, I hope you didn't. If so, what you proved is that you took a bunch of guys that have limited skills and wasted a day when they could get better by replacing it with a day where you made them hate baseball. I'd appreciate knowing but really, that's ok. Nicholas, I've done this for a long time as I've said, don't assume that because people don't agree with you that they are wrong and don't know baseball. Use these resources to improve. Don't take it all personal. You have a lot of people here that have been there and done that. Believe me, I'm in awe of a few in this thred. Take care!

Ironhorse, great comment on page 1.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25:
No Way Guys, we take full responsibility for our play. We do not allow excuses! Yesterday in practice the players hopefully learned a lesson, and payed a price for not showing up to play.

Nicholas, I'm an old veteran of the game. I've been in a few hundred wins (600+) and only about 150-200 losses. So, I hope that you think I've been around some. I've coached baseball in this country and was once honored to represent our country abroad in both Lithuania and Russia. You keep saying that you want to make sure that the game is taught right. Right in who's estimation? Who's unwritten rules are you going by? Who made you the judge on all of this? You have some great baseball people in this thread. I read some of their responses both in this thread and elsewhere on this site and to be honest, they have given you very sound advice. I don't want to offend any of them by leaving their names out but Will, Redbird et. al. have no stake in this and they have stated that this rule of 8 and no bunting and no stealing isn't an UNWRITTEN RULE. Heck, the advice to worry about your team is great advice. You don't have any control over the opponent. Control what you do. You can take a situation like this and make it what you want. My bet, and agreeing with the others, is that they wanted to short game you so that it would end. They'd save thier pitcher's arm and they'd get their players home. More than once or twice I've done this and no one has ever said a word. Now, if it were a larger lead and we had the game won, then, that might have been different.

Nicholas, I used the above quote from the first page and wanted to address this. So, are you suggesting that you punished these kids? That is what I take out of this. So, did you do baseball which they sorely need or did you run them? Did you run them telling them how much heart they lacked, how they backed off and how they are losers? Nicholas, I hope you didn't. If so, what you proved is that you took a bunch of guys that have limited skills and wasted a day when they could get better by replacing it with a day where you made them hate baseball. I'd appreciate knowing but really, that's ok. Nicholas, I've done this for a long time as I've said, don't assume that because people don't agree with you that they are wrong and don't know baseball. Use these resources to improve. Don't take it all personal. You have a lot of people here that have been there and done that. Believe me, I'm in awe of a few in this thred. Take care!

Ironhorse, great comment on page 1.

Thank you coach for your reply. I do not believe in running a team for losing. I do believe a team needs to be sent a message that it is not ok to show up not ready to play baseball. Before I get asked the question, I did not determine they were not ready to play simply because we played terrible! I determined we were not reay to play when we had FIVE players who up late for pregame work before we hit the road (there was not school). As a coach, and I am sure you will agree, you know when your team is ready to play and when they are not. We always run after we stretch and before we throw. We stepped the intensity of our running up to teach a lesson. Then we went to work to correct the fundamental mistakes we made during the course of the game. We had a very nice practice teaching baseball, we would never waste an invaluable opportunity on the field, to only run. As you know, there are not many off days when the season begins, they are precious, and can not be wasted. We have played with a lot of heart, determination, and passion since. I appreciate all you coaches, players, parents, and fans on this website. I wish you nothing but the best.

quote:

We played terrible yesterday, struggled in every aspect of the game. We were down 9-1 late in the game What inning? and the opposing team sac. bunted twice, Did these result in two outs? and stole bases! I was furious! I was taught that if you were up by 8 or more late in the game How late in the game? you quit putting runners in motion, and held runners when they get to third base. I do note see a reason to sac. bunt late in the game when you are up by 8 or more. Neither can I! I consider this bush league. As someone who loves the game, and loves to see it taught the right way, this frustrates me. You would think a high school head coach would understand the unwritten rules of the game.

A couple other things I'd like to know about this situation aside from those in red above. Did the opponents have reserves in the game at that time? Once again, how late in the game? Last inning?

I also have a question for all the coaches posting here. Have you ever sac bunted in the last inning with an 8 run lead? And... Have you ever sac bunted ever with an 8 run lead?

I have coached well over a thousand games and honestly can not ever remember once putting on a sac bunt with an 8 run lead. I have continued to run with an 8 run lead, though.

I think it's embarrassing to give a player the bunt sign with an 8 run lead. Please do not take this as not wanting to score or end the game early.

I do understand the value in ending the game early if possible, just would rather do it without bunting. I'm guessing that most of you guys posting here would not give the bunt sign with an 8 run lead. Maybe I'm wrong!

Our program has a new direction, and sometimes you have to teach kids that the old ways are no longer acceptable.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25:

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25:
No Way Guys, we take full responsibility for our play. We do not allow excuses! Yesterday in practice the players hopefully learned a lesson, and payed a price for not showing up to play.

Nicholas, I'm an old veteran of the game. I've been in a few hundred wins (600+) and only about 150-200 losses. So, I hope that you think I've been around some. I've coached baseball in this country and was once honored to represent our country abroad in both Lithuania and Russia. You keep saying that you want to make sure that the game is taught right. Right in who's estimation? Who's unwritten rules are you going by? Who made you the judge on all of this? You have some great baseball people in this thread. I read some of their responses both in this thread and elsewhere on this site and to be honest, they have given you very sound advice. I don't want to offend any of them by leaving their names out but Will, Redbird et. al. have no stake in this and they have stated that this rule of 8 and no bunting and no stealing isn't an UNWRITTEN RULE. Heck, the advice to worry about your team is great advice. You don't have any control over the opponent. Control what you do. You can take a situation like this and make it what you want. My bet, and agreeing with the others, is that they wanted to short game you so that it would end. They'd save thier pitcher's arm and they'd get their players home. More than once or twice I've done this and no one has ever said a word. Now, if it were a larger lead and we had the game won, then, that might have been different.

Nicholas, I used the above quote from the first page and wanted to address this. So, are you suggesting that you punished these kids? That is what I take out of this. So, did you do baseball which they sorely need or did you run them? Did you run them telling them how much heart they lacked, how they backed off and how they are losers? Nicholas, I hope you didn't. If so, what you proved is that you took a bunch of guys that have limited skills and wasted a day when they could get better by replacing it with a day where you made them hate baseball. I'd appreciate knowing but really, that's ok. Nicholas, I've done this for a long time as I've said, don't assume that because people don't agree with you that they are wrong and don't know baseball. Use these resources to improve. Don't take it all personal. You have a lot of people here that have been there and done that. Believe me, I'm in awe of a few in this thred. Take care!

Ironhorse, great comment on page 1.

Thank you coach for your reply. I do not believe in running a team for losing. I do believe a team needs to be sent a message that it is not ok to show up not ready to play baseball. Before I get asked the question, I did not determine they were not ready to play simply because we played terrible! I determined we were not reay to play when we had FIVE players who up late for pregame work before we hit the road (there was not school). As a coach, and I am sure you will agree, you know when your team is ready to play and when they are not. We always run after we stretch and before we throw. We stepped the intensity of our running up to teach a lesson. Then we went to work to correct the fundamental mistakes we made during the course of the game. We had a very nice practice teaching baseball, we would never waste an invaluable opportunity on the field, to only run. As you know, there are not many off days when the season begins, they are precious, and can not be wasted. We have played with a lot of heart, determination, and passion since. I appreciate all you coaches, players, parents, and fans on this website. I wish you nothing but the best.

I would say this is the first problem. They shouldn't be able to "step it up" when running. It should be full-go already.

quote:

If you were a basketball coach and a team was fullcourt pressing up by 30 late in game, would that have an impact on how you feel? If you were a football coach and the opposing team was throwing it deep down the field up by 4 touchdowns late in the game, would that have an impact on how you feel?

The difference is these games have time limits. As a basketball coach I can decide no way, no how does the other team have enough time to mount a comeback. In baseball if the team that's behind gets hot, they get all the time they want for a comeback.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25:
Our program has a new direction, and sometimes you have to teach kids that the old ways are no longer acceptable.

Nicholas, and that is a great idea. However, you do it in several ways. Bulldog19 was a fiery competitor. I coached against him and he knows the program I ran. He'd be the first to acknowledge that the coaching staff at his school as well as myself get after it. However, we get the kids to buy into it. It isn't overnight. In the end, if you care about the fundamentals and teach the game and then have the kids come along beside you, you'll make it a program. What you're going to have to first do is discover how to make it a program and not just a team.

Here is something for you to think about and what I call, The Qualities of a Baseball Knight.


1. He wants the toughest and best competition in practice and in games because it makes him better.
2. He would rather his team win conference than himself make All-Conference.
3. Whether in the game or not, he wants all of his teammates to do well.
4. He practices hard and pays the price because he knows that most Baseball games are won or lost due to preparation.
5. He deals honestly with his coaches and teammates. He understands that disloyalty to either coaches or teammates hurts the team and will not be tolerated.
6. He never assesses blame.
7. He pays attention to detail.
8. He never likes losing but he is gracious in losing. He understands that he represents his team, coaches, school and community.
9. He will never back down from competition.
10. He practices to make small strides in his game each and every day to enable him to be a complete baseball player by the end of his playing career as a Knight.
11. He realizes that his off-court behaviors, demeanor and attitude affect the team, coaching staff, school and community.
12. He realizes that if we lose, it is not “his fault.” Losing is a team loss. He also realizes that if we win, it is not strictly because of him. Winning is a team win.
13. He realizes that the difference between most players is not so great that hard work cannot overcome it.
14. He puts the time and effort in during the off-season in the plyo-metric and weight conditioning program to enable his team to have success.
15. He would rather build character than be a character!

This or things like this is the first step to building a program. Then, great teams will follow. However, you have to get a tradition started first.

Nicholas,

After you have thought through the list I provided, here is something else to think on. What do you say to the players in practice? That is important! I have sayings that I constantly scream, say, repeat, ...

• Take one day off and you know it. Take two days off and your opponent knows it. Take three days off and everyone knows it.
• Repetition is no fun but it's the reason we have won.
• In the warrior's code there's no surrender. Though your body says quit, your spirit cries never. Deep in your soul's an undying ember that knows it you against you. That's the paradox that drives us all.
• Don't be sorry. Be better!
• There are three types of people in this world. Those that makes things happen. Those that watch things happen. And, those to whom things happen!
• Excellence IS EXPECTED!

Nicholas, you can go to our Middle School and ask any ball player any of these and they'll instantly know them. In fact, you can go all the way down to 4th grade and you'll find some young men that will know them. That is how you turn a program around. You know what, until then you're going to get your lunch handed to you. BUT, once you have it moving and growing, it will thrive on itself. Winning will beget winning IF you allow it to happen. JMHO!

You are exactly right, winning does beget winning. Once the program is established, the young kids coming in will know how we go about our business and what is expected of them. Now, in our first year in the program, we have seniors who talk a big game, but they really don't get it! I guess it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks. I thought our seniors would love and thrive on our new enviroment with an emphasis on teaching the game and paying attention to detail, and they say they do, but they also do not like having to be accountable. Our seniors want to look at everyone else and never look in the mirror. I guess I am expecting way too much out of them. It's hard to crash course four years of baseball into one year. Our future is bright, it just takes time and patience. Thanks guys.

Nicholas, you want to remind us of your situation again.. I went to check and your first post had been edited..

If I remember correctly, you're an assistant coach under a head coach who has been there awhile, right? Why exactly would there be massive change all the way through the program if the head coach is still there?

The head coach was very frustrated with the direction his program had taken. They went through a 4-24 season last year, and lost ugly. They also struggled with discipline. Myself and another first year assistant coach have taken on a lot of the day to day practice and conditioning operations. I mentioned to the head coach that we were rebuilding. He said "no, we are starting over." I respected him for that statement and thought it took a lot of humility to admit that status quo wasn't working. My situation is that I have been blessed to be given a wonderful opportunity to be a first year assistant on an up and coming high school baseball program.

This is a super thread, especially the second half, thanks to all who have posted for some great stuff.

I am not a very active poster on boards, but I have been a very active reader for the past two years trying to learn from people who have much more experience than I do. I felt the need to jump in on this very interesting thread for a few reasons.

1.) I experienced this scenario last night against a team that is usually very competitive. We jumped out to a big lead and ended up winning 22-1. I called off the dogs in the fourth inning up 13-1. I felt that 12 runs was good enough to save our arms and get out of there in 5 innings. I felt this was reasonable. We stopped taking extra bases, and simply took what was given to us. I did not tell my guys to strike out on purpose, bunt back to the pitcher, or hit opposite handed. IMHO this is would be really showing up your opponent. I just emptied my bench in the 4th, let the kids take their at bats and went station to station on the bases. Not a very fun game to be a part of on either side.

2.) The minor debate people got into with age and being a head coach. I am 27 years old and in my 4th year coaching and 4th year as a head coach. I knew that if I wasn't able to play professionally I wanted to coach professionally from the time I was in middle school. I consider my "apprenticeship" as a coach what I learned from the excellent and not so excellent coaches I played under as a player. I felt that I was ready to be a head coach my first year. Don't get me wrong, I made mistakes and have learned a lot by experiencing, talking to other coaches, reading what is posted on this and other boards, and reading coaching and management books. I am without a doubt a FAR better coach today than I was four years ago and I hope to be a FAR better coach four years from now than I am today. I have learned some about skills, drills, hitting, situational baseball since I became a coach. Many of those things don't change over time and don't need major adjustments. Where I have really improved, and where any coach who takes his profession seriously really learns, is how to manage kids who have different needs, how to handle the "extra" things that pop up each year, how to make sure that you are improving from day to day and year to year, and how to conduct yourself as a professional who makes your players better people. One of the most overlooked things in coaching is reflection. Many times coaches focus on what their team did wrong. To me, the most important thing is what did I do wrong, and how can I change that to fix my teams issues.

So in a nutshell: Can a young person qualified to be a head coach? That totally depends on the person. We have a very young staff (27, 26, 25, 25, 22) and it varies so drastically, not in knowledge of the game, but in the way each young coach handles kids and conducts themselves in a professional manner. I totally understand why people would be gun-shy to hire a young inexperienced head coach. I am lucky to have been in a situation where an AD and principal took a chance on me.

Best of luck to everyone this season and let's keep up the good discussion.

BCRockets,

With your attitude, you will be very successful. IMO

That was a very refreshing post and your players are extremely lucky.

I pay you the highest compliment... You are good for the game!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
BCRockets,

With your attitude, you will be very successful. IMO

That was a very refreshing post and your players are extremely lucky.

I pay you the highest compliment... You are good for the game!

What he said

Coach Nicholas is 100 percent correct in that people should not "run up" the score for any reason. I don't care if there are 10 run rules or not. Baseball is the "greatest game on Earth." It is fun because it is mostly played in warm-weather and sunshine. It is fun because whether you are a player, manager, coach or fan, you are always thinking about the strategy and the game itself. Baseball's clock is your own enjoyment. I fail to see anyone's enjoyment when teams that are ahead by eight or 10 runs. When we are ahead by 10, my players are unhappy with the lack of a game. We don't run or bunt or suicide squeeze. We do, however, run hard from base to base on passed balls and wild pitches. We don't appreciate other teams running up the score when we have position players on the mound to chew up innings. Stealing bases ahead during games with insurmountable leads shows a tremendous disrespect for baseball.

Many people quote Bobby Bowden and other unprofessional comments that don't belong in baseball. I have no problem with people beating my brains in by 20 runs. Just make sure you swing the bats and run the bases hard. Stealing and bunting will only get players hurt. If the other team is ripping our pitching staff with doubles and triples in the gaps, well, then I tip my cap. But when you run knowing that the game is six outs away from being over, then you have no respect for baseball. If you are worried about a team coming back, well, then your team must not be that good to begin with. I have played, coached, umpired and managed at high levels for more than 40 years and I can only recall two instances where teams were down eight or ten with six outs to play came back and won the game.

The ten-run rule is not an excuse to act in an obnoxious manner. Swing the bats, play the game hard without stealing bases on backups and making a travesty of the great game of baseball. I don't care if people run the score up on me, but they will answer to me after the game. I don't retaliate because it is not baseball. It is another game coached by those who don't appreciate the work of others. For those who think that it is appropriate to run up the score, fine, please do so, but remember that there are great people out there who spent hours to make this game fun for all of us. Please don't ruin it by trying to show your fans that you know how to hit and run, steal, suicide squeeze to beat a team 15-1 instead of 9-1.

BCRockets,

Not bad...not bad at all.

You mention self reflection versus thinking about what the team did wrong. That trait in itself says alot about you and will serve you well for many years to come, whether you remain in coaching or follow other pursuits. You'll also see your kids play better when they know every move they make isn't always being 2nd guessed (probably the number one problem I see with HS coaches).

You also mention handling players with different needs and making them better. That brings up number 2 problem I see in HS coaches...trying to cookie cut everybody into the same style of hitting, catching or whatever. Easy ( actually lazy) way to coach/teach...often not that successful. Sounds like you've got a handle on that as well.

Good luck this season. Hopefully, luck won't play that big a part.