Nicholas25,

I understand where your coming from and believe that when a team is way ahead you should call the dogs off to a certain degree. That being said I don't think 8 runs is that big of a lead. Two weeks ago my sons team was losing 7 to 0 going into the last inning. After a three run shot and a solo shot, then before you new it the game ended in a 7-7 tie. Teams will also bunt, steal and squeeze to get those last 2 runs so they can get to the ten run rule and save their pitching.

JMO


Banditsbb

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25: In fact, I have never been around a genuine baseball man, who doesn't understand the unwritten rules and codes of the game. When you are up by a bunch late, just play the game, don't try to squeeze them across.

No offense, but since in another thread you were saying that even though it's your first year coaching you think you're qualified and ready to be a head coach, statements like this tell me your not.

Get some experience and then revisit some of these topics.

Brother, you have never seen me organize and run a practice, teach a fundamental skill, motivate a player, make a strategic move, or do anything to benefit a baseball program. I understand I need to pay my dues, and I have no problem doing so, but I have full confidence in my abilities. Watch the NCAA Basketball Tournament. Butler's head coach is 31 years old, I am sure many people thought he was too young and wasn't ready either. The thing is I do not like sounding cocky on a message board, because if you knew me personally you would know that I strive to treat everyone as I want to be treated, and conduct myself with humility. The Bible says "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." Best of luck with your season.

Nicholas25

Just a word or two of advice from an old warhorse---loose the idealistic approach if you want to last in this game--- idealism does not lead to success

A couple of comments:

1) They were probably trying to get to +10 for the mercy rule and end the debacle.

2) Based on the way you guys played, you should be happy for them to GIVE you outs via the bunt.

3) Why is +8 the magic number? Personally, I will call off the dogs when we are +11 but not before then. If you want to complain, get someone out.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholas25:
Brother, you have never seen me organize and run a practice, teach a fundamental skill, motivate a player, make a strategic move, or do anything to benefit a baseball program.

No I haven't. My point is there is more to it than just those things. Such as when to be idealistic and when to be realistic. I don't mean any offense by that. I've been in your shoes.

I still say you would be best served by working under a "genuine baseball man" for a few years. Being a player, knowing the game, and being a successful coach are vastly different skill sets.

ps - I bet the butler coach wasn't made HC his first year in coaching. There's a reason why.

If you coach long enough you will lose and win a game that you were up or down 8 in the 6th inning.

quote:

Some of the things I've heard suggested is to bunt, bat from the other side, slow the runners down. 9 runs isn't a lot. Maybe the other coach thought you were strong enough to come back. I've seen it done - been on both ends.

Gimmicks like batting from the opposite side is much more insulting and rubbing it into the face of the losers. Play it straight up.

Slowing down the runners is fine as long as teams aren't slowing it down so much like if a batter hits a gap shot to the fence and only takes a single when it was a legit double.

quote:

Am I way out of line? Do any of you think along the same lines as I do?

You asked a question about how people felt in a certain situation and now people have responded how they felt. You got answers you didn't want to hear and now you are telling us we got you wrong.

No offense but you aren't ready to be a head coach. There is so much more to it than making out a line up card, creating / executing a practice schedule or running drills. This stuff is easy compared to the rest of it.

Nobody says you have to like losing but you have to learn how to handle it.

THe other night we got mercy ruled and it was just like how you explained your game. We played very ugly. My guys started complaining that the other team was stealing and stuff. I just told them if you don't like then get them out. It wasn't the other team's fault we played terrible.

Remember this - it's not the score you should be embarassed by but the performance of your team. One of them you can control - the other you cannot.

I am taking much of this response from a previous post of mine........an 8 run lead in HS baseball is not BUSH.......and it isnt BUSH in college ball either....

I have umpired many of these types of games and I am a firm believer in playing the game out. There are rules to cover lopsided games.

The object of baseball is to score more runs than your opponent. Play the game hard until such time as the rules end the game.

(In PA it is 15 runs after 3 innings, 10 runs after 5.)

Too many times in my career I have seen injury come about when players pull up or take it easy, or bat from the other side of the plate, or play positions that they normally dont play. I feel the risk or the fun is just not worth it....

Now, once the run rule is reached, I am not saying you should continue to hit and run, steal or be super agressive on the basepaths, but just play the game.........

To me, this is an opportunity to play your team members who wouldnt normally get to.....get the score you need, and then substitute.....the game is served, players get game time, coaches get to see next years team in action while garnering real varsity experience....

In many cases, the coaches will come and ask that I call "lots of strikes"..........I understand that thought but cant bring myself to do it. 2 reasons....one I just cant call a ball a strike...personal hangup.....not in my makeup.......and 2 it screws up my zone.......I have worked for years to develop what I call a consistent zone and by wavering I find that its harder to concentrate on my zone in the next game.

As a coach you will see your team come back from a large deficit to win and you will feel different.....or you are going to get your jock handed to you 22-0 and really know what bush is.......an 8 run lead isnt ....

just my .02

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Am I way out of line? Do any of you think along the same lines as I do?

No offense but you aren't ready to be a head coach. There is so much more to it than making out a line up card, creating / executing a practice schedule or running drills. This stuff is easy compared to the rest of it.

Please tell me the much more to it, and I will tell you if I can do the rest of it. Thanks coach.

Sorry to take so long to get back with you but we have had a pretty heavy schedule this week.

The "other" stuff really isn't easy to describe. It's the stuff that goes on that you really can't prepare for and nobody ever tells you about. It's something you just have to go through and experience.

To be honest with you I believe I was just like you 10 years ago - idealistic and have all the answers. I came to a place that had a horrible history in baseball and I was about 24 years old. I knew I would come in and change everything because I had all the answers. I thought everyone would love me and we would become a great baseball school.


I was an idiot - a complete moronic idiot.

Now I'm not saying that is how you are but you have projected an image through your posts that you know more than the head coach or would put in a better effort than the head coach. That might be the case but this is still a guy who has went through the "other stuff" and earned his leeway.

Basically the other stuff is....

balancing the egos of parents and players
dealing with the paperwork
working the umps
networking with other coaches

There is a bunch more stuff but I can't really describe it and I feel it's something you have to go through to understand what I am talking about. Maybe one of the other coaches can explain it better what I am talking about.

Back in the day when they did not have the 15 and 10 run rule as they have today in high school most coaches adhered to the as they say unwritten rule. But say today there is a 15 run rule after say 3 innings and a 10 run rule after 5 why not go the extra mile get the runs and go home. Less innings your guys have to pitch. Just a thought. It is not baseball but that is what those that make the rules have made the game today. As an old timer it is ugly but there is a reason.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nicholas25:
[QUOTE]

Will pray for you.

If your team is playing many others (ie. 99%) and
if any are ahead by 8 runs in the 3rd/4th inning, yes, several will pray for you after they bury you!

You team may never resurrect!

Mercy rule / guidelines in HS are debated at the beginning of the year. It typically becomes an umpire nightmare (who want more $$$). May you never find a mercy rule at D-1 colleges.
A seven run lead with metal is NOT safe anymore.
Lastly, no mercy rule enables teams to get players PT.

Peace

postscript: For those that have been on both sides, you know what this message is. For those that have only been on one side, and for a while (i.e Terps),
walking out to the bus, thru the oppositions battle space, and the trip home is........ humbling.) For those that have never seen or heard about the other side,...........you are long overdue!

. Many years ago we got really smacked and the other team rubbed in real good. the next year the shoe was on the other foot. We were ahead by a bunch. I made my substitutions.(no reentry or mercy rule back then) I did not steal or bunt but I did not hold runners at third. If they could score I waved them in. Upon scoring a run one of the coaches yelled whats the matter did we not have enough runs. I calmly replied I have a good memory what goes around comes around. End of story

Here are a couple of things that you need to consider.
1. Do you think your team should have been able to compete with the other team, or were they that much better than you?
2. Were they executing these plays well or was your team struggling defensively?
3. When they were ahead by 8, were you still trying to win the game? Would you bunt and steal in order to get back in the game?

Personally, if we can end a game in 5 we will. I like to stay up by ten. We will steal or hit and run in order to stay out of a double play. Things also depend on our opponent. If we feel like we are that much stronger than our opponent and do not feel a threat, we will call off the dogs earlier. If we feel we are playing a strong team, we will do all we can to put them away early. That is respect for the game and your opponent. Do not let your players learn to let down in life when things go their way or they will not know what to do when things do not. That does not mean you should not show class. Running a squeeze play, or stealing against a weak opponent when up by a very large margin is not class, but it does not sound like you were a weak opponent in this case. I could be wrong.

In baseball particularly sometimes good teams have as they say one of those days. Pitcher cant find the strike zone everything the other team hits finds a hole. so sometimes weakness is not an issue

quote:

HSBBWeb Old Timer

Nicholas25,
I agree with Will that all teams can have one of those days. It sounds like that was the case for your team, tip your hat to the opponent and focus on preventing the things they did that you were not able to stop. When a bad team has a bad day everyone in the park knows it and you coach a little differently against that situation. That does not occur very often. Keep track when your team loses a game and you will usually see it is in one inning that the game takes a turn. If you lay down with a lead, you will be the coach giving the "if we play each inning with our best effort..." speech! Good luck to you, most coaches are good people, the one's that aren't will be very easy to spot; they will be the one's that lack success and class with the players, parents, and total program. These are things you will learn as you go along. This site is a good place to come and ask questions as well as share ideas.

I have a lot of respect for the game of baseball. I am not as concerned with my club in this situation as I am seeing the game is taught the right way. It was never about me being upset because we were getting beat (although I was upset). I realize I am in the minority with my views (at least on this site), and we will have to agree to disagree. Thanks guys for all of your replys.

I try to end the game as soon as I can, anything can happen in h.s. baseball.
As an example, last season we were up on team by 9 runs after 5. The opposing coach wanted to know if we wanted to call it (they are from a neighboring state that plays an 8 run rule). I suggested we continue, saying something like "the way your guys hit, coach, you're never out of it". Sure enough, they came back and beat us....and the team I was coaching won 30 games last season!
That's why I always stay agressive until I have no doubt it's over. To me there is absolutely no shame in sac bunting or stealing the game-ending/winning run into scoring position.

But I will admit there is a fine line between assuring yourself a win and running it up. I think it was Bobby Bowden that told Lou Holtz once.."Coach, it's not my job to keep my guys out of your end zone!".