quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:

Schedule make up practices Saturday night at 8:00pm or 4:00am Sunday morning. Or both. It will then become a priority for the player to schedule extracurricular activities around baseball.
In your example of the 80yr thing....Do you think that kid wants to flush 4 or 5 Saturday nights???
He11 no!! You will be amazed how kids/parents can be creative in scheduling around baseball when they have an incentive.

This was my HS coaches rule, Rarely did my coach ever have to run an 8:00 Sat. night practice. I stayed home from school once during season with the flu, but my Azz found a way to get to practice!
btw, my HS coach was a GREAT GUY! Luv him to this day!

Triple Dad,

This could be a potential punishment for the coach! He would have to be there at these times. I know I couldn't schedule a 4 AM practice!!

j2...thanks for the input. Yes, I'm going to suggest that they try to make arrangements to be at the games, otherwise he will be missing a third of the season.

bcb3....Thats what really brought this to a head. Those numbers are correct. Many of the "misses" were very legitimate(illness, family illness/death, SAT's, Science Fair), but it still led to an awful lot of players not knowing what they should be doing.

TripleDad....I should note that in addition to players losing playing time for missing, they generally had physical punishment (read: running) that they got when they came back. Maybe I need to make the punishment more painful (similar to the Saturday night practices), but I'm afraid that just having Saturday night practices would not deter the behavior. Maybe 6 AM practices would, but they'd be killin' me too.

Good Eye....As a minimum, I'm leaning toward telling the player and his parents that he will be missing 9 games (3, plus 2x the misses), or a third of our season and that he will be losing his job and probably spending time on JV until he works his way back up to varsity.

As a maximum, I may have to tell him that if he's going to miss that much time, he may be cut from the team. I guess that really might depend on whether I have that many kids trying out who don't really deserve to be cut. If they are kids I'd want to keep, but don't have the room, maybe they'd take a job away from him.

Im kind of amazed at the number of practices missed and games missed to be honest with you. I have five seniors this coming season that will be on the varsity squad. They have never missed a single practice or game in their entire career. Last season no one missed a single practice or game excused or unexcused. It is very rare anyone ever is not at practice. If they are sick and miss school that is about the only time we have anyone miss anything.

Our team rules are the following: Excused miss - Sick not at school - must call and leave a message for the coach. Death in the family or family emergency. Must bring a note from home explaining the emergency. School work / assignment: Must have your teacher see the coach and explain the reason for the miss. If its because you did not take care of business in the first place its an unexcused miss. If its extra work that the teacher says you need to do then its excused. Unexcused miss: Any reason other than excused. There is no penalty for an excused miss.

Now if a player has a function that he says he can not miss like a birthday party etc or family outing etc we talk to the player and handle it on a case by case basis. What time is the party? Where is the party? Usually things can be worked out like moving practice etc. But to be honest with you they never say anything about missing because we just dont miss.

Our rule is one unexcused miss - sit two games. Two unexcused miss - your gone for the year.

In this situation I dont see how you can tell a kid that he can not go to his grandma's 80th birthday party. What if he doesnt go and she dies (God Forbid) before he has the chance to see her again? I would not want that on my hands. To me I would handle this as a family emergency situation. Its not the same as missing for a birthday party for your mom or dad or brother or sister. This is alot different imo.

I do have one question though. Why would a mom schedule something like this during the HS baseball season? Why not have a regular get together after the game. And then have a big shin dig during the summer when it does not confict with the HS season. JMO on that one.

Our guys just dont miss. This is my 12th year coming up. We have never had a player miss a game for any reason other than they were in the bed sick as a dog. Never for anyother reason. I honestly can not remember the last time everyone was not at practice. How can you run a program when guys come and go as they please and then when called out they have excuses etc etc. If you want to play then be there all the time or do something else.

I get a good read on kids level of committment during the summer and fall workouts. If I see them missing those I usually cut them when we have tryouts. No need to deal with it. The ones that love to play and want to work to get better would show up with the flu if you let them. The others really dont want to play imo.

I have to be honest but you don't have to miss practice or games for the ACT / SAT tests. They are given throughout the year and guys can plan accordingly to take them then.

You say you don't know if the player will even start.
So you really don't need him to play,you only want to make an example of him... I don't think thats fair. Its not this players fault that your players aren't showing up to practice. His family have given you plenty of advanced notice and are asking for an excused absence.

But it's NOT an excused absence by the definition that I have had in place for some time.

Telling me about it 5 months in advance doesn't make a difference. I mean, I certainly appreciate them bringing up the issue now so we can discuss it, but the point is that we are putting a lot of things ahead of our team and teammates. We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want to make the team, get to play all the time, but then when we want to miss practice or games for something that is PERSONAL to us, our teammates and coaches should just understand that and accept that we'll miss games to do what we want to do. And that we expect that there will be no consequences to our missing.

I'm not trying to make an example of this kid, I'm just trying to make everyone understand that the rules must apply to everyone EQUALLY, whether starter or role player, Junior or Senior, kid I know well or kid I've just met.

You insinuate in your post that maybe I want to make an example of him because I don't think he is a starter. Nothing could be further from the truth; I indicated in my earlier post that we brought him up as a Sophomore and he hit pretty well, so I certainly think he has some potential. No, I don't know for sure that he'll be a starter, but he has certainly given indications that he may hit as well as at least 8 other players. Please understand I would be going through these issues no matter who this player was.....

Perhaps saying" making an example of him "were the wrong words.
My point is that you've had problems in the pass... you want to change things and this is your first test case... you are setting the standard with him...(making an example to the rest of the team how things are going to be.)
I've never coached so I don't know the feeling of frustration you must be feeling.
Most of the parents I knew busted their butts arranging their lives around team schedules and always appreciated a coach with a little flexibility.
Once in awhile important events come up in a families life that may not seem more important than the team but really are to the family.
I have witnessed players and their parents (because the player needed transportation) miss a big family event, drive hundreds of miles, and their son sat the bench.... Why was this necessary?? If the coach knew he wasn't a starter why did he have to be there?
Many times the player doesn't have a choice whether he is at the game it is the parent who decides but its the player who is punished ....
Perhaps your rules should not list the reasons an absence will be excused, only that you as the coach will be the one who decides who is excused on a case by case bases. This would allow you some flexibility in each situation.

You have to use a little common sense here.

Last season, we had a ton of kids miss a ton of practices/games.

There are legitimate reasons and lame reasons. You have to decide.

I'm in my 13th season as head coach. 12 winning seasons before last year; we finished 8-16.

Maybe this is an over reaction on your part. A losing season? It happens and for many reasons.

njbb....don't disagree with most of what you've said. In fact we all know parents of "travel team" ballplayers who essentially spend their whole summer bowing to their son's baseball schedule and putting their lives on hold. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you choose to do

My disagreement with what you said is that just because a player isn't a starter, should that mean he doesn't have to show up? Everyone on the team is important for the role they play, and/or because you never know when they will be needed. If you let it be known that only the starters NEED to be there, you'll only have 9 kids show up at your game.

Will...definitely wasn't happy about having a losing season. Did I expect to never have a losing season? No. Would it have been neat,for me as the coach? Sure. But I'm not coaching for ME. I'm coaching because I love it and I love the kids and want to see them successful. And aren't we also trying to teach the kids responsibility, commitment and reliability? I think we are. Eventually, these kids will have a job, and they'll need to understand you can't take off whenever you want. I personally hope that this kid will be of the mind that he'd rather not miss the ballgames if he doesn't have to. Even if that's what ends up happening.

Isn't it being responsible to give you 5 months notice?
I'm not trying to change your mind coach,just giving you another point of view. Good luck with your team.

I would just take this approach. You miss games or practices you have to sit when you come back. You then have to win your posistion or playing time back. This will put the ball in the players court so to speak. If they really want to play they will not miss. If they really dont care then they wont mind riding the pine. The ones that really want to play you will not have to worry about them missing. And those are the guys you want on the field anyway. Once players see that there will be a price for not coming to practice or games they will start to police it themselves.

For the life of me I can not understand any player that really loves to play having to be forced by rules to come to practices and games. Im sure none of these types of players plan on playing past HS.

How can some guys go four years and never be late one time , never miss one practice or miss one game? Maybe these are the guys that really want to play and understand the importance of team. All the other guys are rec players with rec mentality.

This has just never been an issue with our program. Its hard for me to imagine it.

Ummm, I think Grandma's big 80th deserves to come first. A coach that wouldn't respect a milestone family event like that, and the significance of a boy paying his respects to his grandma by being present... well what can I say--I think there are exceptions to certain "rules" and this would be one.

Let parents know that you must have 4 months advanced notice of any potential absences and you will make a determination, case by case, of those that you will accept as "excused". Those that are unexcused will result in sitting the bench for a certain number of games or innings. I think this family has given you plenty of notice to make an evaluation and plan around this special, once-in-a-lifetime event.

No offense but I kind of get the impression you pretty much have your mind made up and you came on here to get people to back you. If I am wrong then I apologize but that is the feeling I am getting.

Always remember whatever happens in this case your players in the coming years are going to have birthdays, anniversaries, funerals, proms, etc... coming up. It would be nice to be in Coach May's shoes and not really have to worry about it. I wish I could be in that situation but let's face it - the vast majority of schools in the nation are not like that.

Your best bet is to use what someone said earlier about having a set amount of excused and unexcused absences. Once you reach them then you have some sort of punishment.

This way you are giving the kids enough rope to hang themselves if they are that way. This shows you are flexible yet have a system in place.

It's your team and you can do whatever you want. But remember whatever you do to do it equally and fairly. If not then you will fewer and fewer kids at your tryouts.

quote:

by nj: Isn't it being responsible to give you 5 months notice?

that responsibility door swings both ways ..
with 5 months notice even for a large family it seems like very (piz) poor planing on their part

esp since Easter break is just days earlier, kids would'a been off school, athletic events unlikely at a Catholic school, parents often take a long weekends from work ...

AND it is a traditional time for families to get together



was 4 3/4 months too little notice for some family members?
but 5 months OK?

A word to the wise: never use the word punishment.
You can use the word 'policy' but don't use punishment or you may friy your bacon.

You are either there or you are not there. You make a policy at the beginning of the season about such things. Be fair but be consistent. There are always mitigating circumstances in some cases. Use common sense. But always remember when you make a rule it applies to everybody on the team.

njbb...I don't think I ever said the player or his parents were not being responsible. Telling me about this ahead of time is greatly appreciated and it is why I'm mulling over what to do. I would have been very upset if the player knew about these plans months ahead of time and then let me know the day before he was going to go.

But the issue is his responsibility to his teammates as opposed to being "responsible" by telling me about it ahead of time. Again, maybe I was raised in a strange family, but it was always understood that if you were involved in a team sport, you would only miss in the most extreme of situations. A birthday party was not considered an extreme situation. But, I am allowing for the fact that my father was someone who very much valued team sports the way they are not valued today.

....and I absolutely value your point of view. That's why I asked this question of fellow coaches; to explore whether I was looking at this in level-headed manner and whether I was considering all of the facets of this situation.

As for my rules: the rule has always been that if you miss 3 times for unexcused reasons, you are off the team. I guess the question is whether going to a family reunion is considered an unexcused absence. It never has been in the past, so I guess those who might accuse me of just looking for "backup" when I get rid of this kid are a little off base...I am actually coming from the perspective that, in the past, he would not be on the team for missing three games for an unexcused absence. I am trying to consider whether I can resolve this WITHOUT removing him from the team.

Coach May, I agree with you so much about the attitude of players today. Especially with baseball, I feel players are very willing to miss practices/games when they never would have in the past. And that is also one of my points: If this player will easily miss three GAMES, would I not be better off with keeping a slightly less talented player who would NEVER miss a game or practice and would give you 100% every game?

Quillgirl: As previously noted, my policy for several years has been "3 strikes and you're out", so by all rules previously in place, he would be off the team IF going to the birthday party is considered an unexcused absence (which it always has been in the past). Please remember too, that that weekend IS NOT her birthday. Her birthday was 2 months ago and the date of this party is simply a date that apparently coincided with most of the relatives being able to get together. The player and his immediate family DID go down to Grandma's on her birthday to celebrate with her back in September. It was the other family members from further out of state who could not make it.....

And as I've said before, is there not the possibility of attending our game on Friday and the Saturday morning game(s), and then going down to the weekend celebration Saturday afternoon?

Coach2709...not much offense taken, but a little bit As I've said numerous times, I'm trying to find a way around this and I came on this board to get input from fellow coaches. I never said I wouldn't argue my position, or that I wouldn't play Devil's Advocate. I never said I would let anyone convince me. I simply said I wanted to get a dialogue going so that I was sure I was looking at every possible angle. I thought that was what the Coach's Forum was about.

And as I've said many times, the question is, after laying down the law THIS YEAR about how I have to tighten things up from last year, I'm getting a player who is putting me in a position where I have to go THE OTHER WAY, and cut him more slack than what I've done in past years.

I don't think I've ever been unfair to my players, although, as every Coach knows, just because YOU think you treat your players fairly, that doesn't mean they or their parents feel that way. I am trying to apply rules fairly to all my players and not let anyone get special treatment. If I DO consider this event an excused absence, then don't I have to consider ANY family birthday or reunion an excused absence, to be fair and equitable? If so, and I have 15 different players missing a practice/game or two, what will I have then? I guess I'm concerned about the proverbial "slippery slope" where, instead of cracking down to make sure players miss fewer practices/games, I create a situation where I am unable to keep them from missing MORE.

Bee...exactly. I am concerned that when the family discussed rescheduling this thing, a nephew missing a few ball games was considered a big deal. And as I've noted, Grandma is not in ill health; they were not concerned about putting off this thing for 6 months. And, honestly, I consider it more of a family reunion that Grandma's birthday party as that seemed to be the focus of Mom's email...the fact that all her brother's and sisters were coming in to town. Which again makes me question: how much would the player miss out if he didn't come down to the reunion until about 24 hours later than most of his aunts, uncles and cousins?

Again, appreciate all your input. I'm using you all to "push" me and "stretch" me to make sure that I consider all the alternatives and, honestly, to consider how this will affect the family in question, all the other players on the team, and myself and my coaching staff.

TCB1-
This may well seem too simplistic, and this is coming from a parent, not a coach, but I would say that you allow each player's family one excused absence (1 game), the family will decide what is ABSOLUTELY necessary. You do not need to know the details, but they get just one. As this player's family has all of these months to contemplate their decision, perhaps they may come to a different decision or make an adjustment to their plans.
In any case, the ball is in their court. Let them know there will have to be make-ups for the other two games (whatever you decide), before the kid could return to his team status before the missed games. As a parent, I would weigh this against the planned trip as is, and perhaps after discussing it with son, make alternate arrangements to try to get back for whatever we could.

I will say this though, as a parent of a three sport athlete in his high school years, I don't really think the coaches appreciated what we as a family not only gave up because of sports, but sometimes they were downright ambivillant about the super human efforts our family made to accomadate each coach. Our kid was often on the road at 4 or 5:00am to play a game - multiple games (basketball)(tournaments) participate, jump in car sweaty, exhausted and starving, falling asleep as we raced to a double header where he was expected to jump out of the car and pitch a game, or if he did not pitch play both games every inning.

My point is - and this was prior to high school - the coaches only cared that he was there, did not care what we had gone through to get him there, or what family events we did not attend...we gave up a lot and looking back I think it was crazy. After getting to high school he was protected by whatever sport he was in at the time so it was better.

I was particulary disappointed after we had established ourselves as the ones who were always there, when son became ill with flu (very serious) when told that the only appt we could get with our doctor was during practice time, coach suggested that we go to emergency room after practice, not only was I ****ed that he thought so little of my son to suggest he postpone an urgent appt, but to assume that we could afford an emergency room visit!
I was not a happy camper, but guess what, son went to practice - sat in complete delerium - and the whole team ended up getting the flu - which led to greater problems for the coach.

Use common sense and be fair, if someone abuses the rules, dish out the consequences. If families have real needs, then give them their one pass, and let them figure out how they will deal with any more.

TCB, Sorry I didn't realize they'd already gone down to celebrate the birthday with grandma earlier. So the boy has paid his respects. That makes a difference in my thoughts.

STILL, it might be about some other problem for the family. If there are relatives coming from all corners of the earth and they haven't seen each other for years, again, it might be this family's only opportunity to connect for a long time. It's hard to judge what is of great importance to one family based on your own. Also, maybe it's not even a matter of the family needing the boy to attend the reunion/party but the fact that they'd have to leave him at home alone for the weekend because the rest of them will attend. And, really, it's not a regular birthday party here. It's a milestone gathering for the matriarch of the family-- not much different from a wedding or other important event. Would being in his sister's or cousin's wedding be excused, or would he have to decline that in order to play in his games?

I guess I'm saying that sometimes families have special circumstances that require flexibility. I am a firm believer in team commitment, but call us clannish southerners, we also believe family commitments trump everything else. (Not every family gathering is important enough to miss practices or games, but certain ones are.) If that family is loyal and committed other than this one request, then I'd have to think long and hard about making them choose between team and family.

Again, thanks for all the input....

I ran into the player last night and talked to him personally. As a Junior in high school, I felt it would be good to talk to him directly to find out what he knows about the situation.

He indicated that his mom hadn't told him anything about the re-scheduled date for the family get together. In his words, "Probably because she knows I'm going to fight her about it".

I told him about the policy of sitting double the number of games missed, and he said of course that he knew about it and would discuss things with his parents. I let him know that I would not have a problem if he could make it for the Friday game and the first game of the DH on Saturday as we generally try to get everyone in on DH's, and he would probably sit one game anyway.

I guess that was my compromise: be there for 2 games and you can leave early on Saturday for your family reunion, without loss of playing time. I even offered the suggestion of driving him 1/2 way to the family reunion later Saturday if he wanted to stay for both games.

We'll see what happens.