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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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B25, May and others; I doubt that any of us are all that different from the rest. I don't see any of you guys, and we've talked enough in the chat room to know a little bit about each other, simply kicking a kid off a team without first talking to him, at least once. I know that you guys care very much about what is in the best interest of the players, and coach them accordingly. Coach May, you haven't exactly said it, but I'd be shocked if you would dump a kid without having a conversation with him beforehand, I know that isn't the type of person you are. But I also think that you are able to avoid many of these situations by getting the right players to begin with, which is what I strive to do as well.
You can't overestimate the degree to which you keep problems to a minimum by proper player selection. Virtually all of the boys who play summer ball on my teams are serious players who aspire to play beyond high school. There is rarely a need to talk to that kind of kid about hustle or motivation.
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| Posts: 1227 | Location: California | Registered: January 10, 2004 | |
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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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quote: but I also understand that is also the best way to have players and parents hate you.
If you think you are going to please everybody you are not. If you try to you will be in deep trouble. I know I never worried about parents hating me after all I never wrote their name on the lineup card. As far as players hating you then they can play somewhere else where the coach lets them do what they want. And in that my experience tells me the TEAM will not be successful |
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| Posts: 1560 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: January 06, 2003 | |
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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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While I agree withe CM & TR on hustle not being optional, I also feel it is important to give a player the chance to explain what was going on. You might find, as I did one time, that a kid has just been in the middle of a blowup between his parents. Or that a close relative passed away. Or some other truly extenuating circumstances. Should there be no valid causes, then the expectations must be clearly explained and upheld.
"Show me a guy who won't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser" Sandy Koufax
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| Posts: 4133 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: June 02, 2003 | |
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Member
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Nicholas- I may have a bit of a different perspective. I am currently in that transition phase. I have been coaching for 5 years, all as a head coach. I started off as the drill sargent (only 22 years old at the time coaching kids just 4 years younger than me). Each year, I have noticed myself change and become more of a teacher than a coach. I now look at coaching as an extension of the classroom. I would never make a kid do wind sprints because they got a problem wrong in my Algebra class, I wouldn't yell at them, I would teach them how to do it correctly. In my opinion you should spend twice as much time critiquing yourself and your coaching staff as you do your players. It seems as though you are beginning to look at the way you do things and that is one of the best qualities a coach can have. I do not feel that my expectations for my athletes have lessened, the way I go about ensuring they live up to them has. I trust my athletes and allow them to be individuals within a team concept. In addition to helping them learn and become adults, I have found that this is a much more enjoyable way for me to coach. It reduces my stress and reduces the stress for my players. They are not afraid to make mistakes as long as they learn from them, just like I am not afraid to make mistakes as long as I learn from them.
Make the routine play!
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| Posts: 110 | Location: Illinois | Registered: May 25, 2006 | |
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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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BC, great post! Your philosophy captures so much of what I believe.
CM, we're so much on the same page, I'll bet we could walk into a dugout together and work pretty seamlessly right from the start. I've been giving a lot of thought to your comments, and you certainly look for all the same things I do. When people ask me what type of baseball players I want on our teams, I tell them we're looking for three things in the kid; We want kids who are capable of being good players, who are quality individuals and who come from quality families. If you get a kid who has those qualities, you have a great time playing ball with them, and have virtually no problems.
One thing that helps us is that I mentor my older players to become leaders by assisting the younger guys who are coming along behind them. It's easy to ask them to do it, since my older guys who are now playing in college or minor league ball bought into that concept and helped these current guys when they were first coming in. I tell the current guys that since the older guys helped them, they owe it back and have to help the younger guys who'll be in their position when they move on. We get most of the top players in our region, (8 on this year's Connie Mack team have D1 deals, and several more will after July 1) and I truly believe that part of what has helped them become that caliber of player is understanding that being a quality player is about more than just what they do between the lines, it's also getting them to buy into the concept that they need to be a quality Student Athleteand all that encompasses. It's heartening when some of the older players come around to visit with the younger guys. The younger kids look up to the college and Milb guys, and I couldn't be happier with the older guys than when they take the time to share their experience and views with the current players. They GET IT, and I'm proud as heck of them for being quality young men. Those are the kinds of players who build successful organizations. They also make coaching very easy.
One additional thing that really seems to help my boys play their you know what's off, is that they all know it is OK to fail on the field, as long as they aren't mental mistakes. I tell them that if they make a mistake, it's OK as long as they learn from it and it doesn't keep happening over and over. If they know they won't hear about a failure becuase they busted their butt and tried to do something they might not attempt in high school season, they learn that they can do things beyond what they believed. Hustle is rewarded big time, effort is rewarded big time and it gets contagious. Having the freedom and latitude to explore the limits of their ability is empowering to many of them, and it's common to see our players acheive at higher levels than they do in school baseball. Nothing makes me prouder than to see a center fielder go into the gap, lay out and make a diving catch with a corner outfielder backing him up, when he wouldn't dream of trying that during our HS season. That kind of play sets the tone for everyone and becomes contagious up and down the bench.
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| Posts: 1227 | Location: California | Registered: January 10, 2004 | |
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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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quote: Originally posted by Texan:
While I agree withe CM & TR on hustle not being optional, I also feel it is important to give a player the chance to explain what was going on.
You might find, as I did one time, that a kid has just been in the middle of a blowup between his parents. Or that a close relative passed away. Or some other truly extenuating circumstances.
Should there be no valid causes, then the expectations must be clearly explained and upheld.
Texan...great point! I had a kid about 10 years ago who was having a horrible two or three days in a row. Mental and physical mistakes. I figured everyone could have some off days, but it was getting really out of character for him. After a game, I took him on the side and asked what was up? This 6'1", 190 lbs. 17 year old proceeded to break into tears while he told me his dad was beating the **** out of him and his mom. He explained how the best part of his day was the 5 hours he spent playing baseball with the team. We took corrective action against the dad (using the law), and that really made things better for him and mom. Bottom line, you never know what could be going on with a young man/lady until you ask. |
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| Posts: 744 | Location: Mt. Airy, MD, USA | Registered: December 28, 2003 | |
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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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quote: Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
When people ask me what type of baseball players I want on our teams, I tell them we're looking for three things in the kid; We want kids who are capable of being good players, who are quality individuals and who come from quality families.
06catcherdad, we agree for the most part and do so in many threads. However, I did want to point this sentence out. It's great to have those qualities in a player but there are times when the kid has so many obstacles in his way. Certainly, I did not meet those criteria and yet, I did resonably well. I had to have a coach who I could grow to trust since I hated everyone. Yes, everyone hated me as well. Since I took up coaching, I've run in to me several times. I coached on young man who's Mom would have to have me come over to control him. He raged against life itself. He hated everyone including me. On the field he was a chore and I cut him no slack. In the end, he ended up going to college, playing in the majors and giving back to his community. He continues to give back to this very day and is a fixture now in the community. I could have taken the easy road several times and cut him loose. Please, everyone keep that in mind when we are putting all of these players into our idea of what we want to achieve as a coach.
"... and if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plan."
CoachB25 = Darrell Butler
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| Posts: 3618 | Location: Interstate 55, 70 & 270 | Registered: February 02, 2004 | |
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We had a nice meeting up in the press box a half-hour before practice. Unless he told his teammates, not one of them know anything about it. We told him how much we enjoyed coaching him, and how valuable he was to the future of our program, but that his effort was not acceptable. I started off by asking him to explain to me what happend. He mentioned his arm was sore, he was tired, and he did not feel like catching. I talked to him about the demands of the position, and how it does not take talent to give effort. I told him I believed with all of my heart that we would not have to have this conversation again. I pray it worked, because that was a first for me. A month or two ago, in the school season, I would have chewed a player out, and ran his butt off, so this was different for me. I want to be the best coach I can be, and if that means changing my coaching style a litte bit, then that is what it means!
Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men. Colossians 3:23 (HOLMAN CHRISTIAN STANDARD BIBLE)
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| Posts: 76 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: March 01, 2008 | |
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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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Nicholas, thank you having an open enough mind to try a different approach. Regardless of how this turns out, just the fact that you're willing to listen to other ways of doing things and trying them indicates you're likely to be successful in coaching. So much of coaching, beyond knowing the game, is people skills. Coaches who have good people skills tend to be the more successful ones over the long haul. It sounds like you handled this situation well and now that you know the reasons the kid isn't living up to your expectations, you have the ability to better measure his effort. He also got the chance to learn what you expect in what sounds like a positive encounter.
Don't worry B25, I take my share of project kids as well as the kind I seek out. I've got three or four this summer who don't fit the ideal mold, but seem to be kids worth spending some time on. One is a kid who has off-field issues with his personal conduct and the choices he makes. He's a good kid, nice kid; but tends to associate with the wrong kind of kids away from the game. We're working on positively changing that behavior, and it started with him and me having a one on one, without his parents there, to talk about his unacceptable choices and what was expected if we allowed him to play with us. The kid had to look me in the eye and give me his word that he won't let me down on this stuff, or ever negatively influence any kid in the program. He knows what the consequences will be if he violates our deal. He's got D1 ability, but a mentality that threatens it all.
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| Posts: 1227 | Location: California | Registered: January 10, 2004 | |
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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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quote: Originally posted by CoachB25: quote: Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
When people ask me what type of baseball players I want on our teams, I tell them we're looking for three things in the kid; We want kids who are capable of being good players, who are quality individuals and who come from quality families.
06catcherdad, we agree for the most part and do so in many threads. However, I did want to point this sentence out. It's great to have those qualities in a player but there are times when the kid has so many obstacles in his way. Certainly, I did not meet those criteria and yet, I did resonably well. I had to have a coach who I could grow to trust since I hated everyone. Yes, everyone hated me as well. Since I took up coaching, I've run in to me several times. I coached on young man who's Mom would have to have me come over to control him. He raged against life itself. He hated everyone including me. On the field he was a chore and I cut him no slack. In the end, he ended up going to college, playing in the majors and giving back to his community. He continues to give back to this very day and is a fixture now in the community. I could have taken the easy road several times and cut him loose. Please, everyone keep that in mind when we are putting all of these players into our idea of what we want to achieve as a coach.
06CDAD...I understand the spirit of what you are saying with regards to requirement #3 (quality family), but you don't mean that literally do you? I mean kids can't control who their parents are. My major issue was I wanted guys who were good to be around during the 3rd inning of the first game of a Sunday DHer in July when it is 93 degrees out with 90% humidity. |
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| Posts: 744 | Location: Mt. Airy, MD, USA | Registered: December 28, 2003 | |
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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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Larry, what I mean, very literally, is that I want good parents, not the helicopter types who want to hover and are always worried about johnny. I'll tolerate about 100 times the amount of 'stuff' from a player that I will from a parent. I'll give you two examples of exchanges I've had with parents to illustrate my view.
Last week, we began our summer season. I couldn't be at our games, other than the first game on Saturday, due to my daughter's high school graduation and the parties everyone was having. On Saturday night, I had this hysterical message from a deranged parent, complaining about how his 'all-league' son sat out of one of the two games, while a 'clearly inferior' player got his playing time. It was a very good thing the parent left a message, rather than confront me in person. I waited about ten minutes to calm down, then phoned him back. He wasn't there, so I left a polite but firm message that I wanted to talk to him to address his concerns. When he called back, the first thing he did was apologize for the tone of his message and said I probably thought he was some kind of nut job; I didn't disagree with him. What I did was explain to the parent MY rationale for why I asked my coaches to play the 'other kid', and that throwing that other kid a bone was the real reason his son sat. We talked for a while and the father eventually understood exactly what the rationale was behind the playing time decision. He felt pretty dumb at the end for ever having brought his complaint up. I finished up by telling the dad that "we aren't going to have this type of conversation again, ever. If you initiate one, it'll be the last talk we ever have with your son as a member of any of our teams. Understood?"
The other parent I'll use as an example is an attorney for a major public corporation. She has more chutzpa than any two men I've ever met, combined. She approached me one time about five years ago, and said "When (not IF, but WHEN) we have a problem with how you coach the team, how are we going to handle it?" I simply told her that we weren't going to have a problem; that I'd hand her a check while shaking her hand and apoligizing for failing to meet her high expectations for her son. Her jaw dropped, and she asked if I really meant that I'd cut her son from the team if she complained. I told her I'd do it in a New York second, as I didn't give a **** about her views regarding my teams and that there are plenty of other players out there who'd love to play for us. I told her that if she knew how to do it better than me, do what I did and start your own team. She knew I meant it, and I never had another problem with her, and her son played with us in 4 more summers. He went on to get a nice scholarship with a Pac-10 school, then went back later to a juco as he aspired to play pro ball. It was a big mistake, but that's another story for another time.
I'm not trying to save the world, this is a hobby for me, not my job. There are plenty of wonderful young men out there who aspire to play beyond high school, and I enjoy helping as many as I can acheive that dream. I don't need to put up with parents who want to act like idiots in the process. So, long answer to a short question, YEAH, that's exactly what I meant to say.
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| Posts: 1227 | Location: California | Registered: January 10, 2004 | |
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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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quote: Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
Larry, what I mean, very literally, is that I want good parents, not the helicopter types who want to hover and are always worried about johnny. I'll tolerate about 100 times the amount of 'stuff' from a player that I will from a parent. I'll give you two examples of exchanges I've had with parents to illustrate my view.
Last week, we began our summer season. I couldn't be at our games, other than the first game on Saturday, due to my daughter's high school graduation and the parties everyone was having. On Saturday night, I had this hysterical message from a deranged parent, complaining about how his 'all-league' son sat out of one of the two games, while a 'clearly inferior' player got his playing time. It was a very good thing the parent left a message, rather than confront me in person. I waited about ten minutes to calm down, then phoned him back. He wasn't there, so I left a polite but firm message that I wanted to talk to him to address his concerns. When he called back, the first thing he did was apologize for the tone of his message and said I probably thought he was some kind of nut job; I didn't disagree with him. What I did was explain to the parent MY rationale for why I asked my coaches to play the 'other kid', and that throwing that other kid a bone was the real reason his son sat. We talked for a while and the father eventually understood exactly what the rationale was behind the playing time decision. He felt pretty dumb at the end for ever having brought his complaint up. I finished up by telling the dad that "we aren't going to have this type of conversation again, ever. If you initiate one, it'll be the last talk we ever have with your son as a member of any of our teams. Understood?"
The other parent I'll use as an example is an attorney for a major public corporation. She has more chutzpa than any two men I've ever met, combined. She approached me one time about five years ago, and said "When (not IF, but WHEN) we have a problem with how you coach the team, how are we going to handle it?" I simply told her that we weren't going to have a problem; that I'd hand her a check while shaking her hand and apoligizing for failing to meet her high expectations for her son. Her jaw dropped, and she asked if I really meant that I'd cut her son from the team if she complained. I told her I'd do it in a New York second, as I didn't give a **** about her views regarding my teams and that there are plenty of other players out there who'd love to play for us. I told her that if she knew how to do it better than me, do what I did and start your own team. She knew I meant it, and I never had another problem with her, and her son played with us in 4 more summers. He went on to get a nice scholarship with a Pac-10 school, then went back later to a juco as he aspired to play pro ball. It was a big mistake, but that's another story for another time.
I'm not trying to save the world, this is a hobby for me, not my job. There are plenty of wonderful young men out there who aspire to play beyond high school, and I enjoy helping as many as I can acheive that dream. I don't need to put up with parents who want to act like idiots in the process. So, long answer to a short question, YEAH, that's exactly what I meant to say.
You handled both exactly the way I handled those scenarios the last 10 years I was coaching. I got another one to share. First year player for me. All-league pitcher/3B in first DHer weekend of the season. He pitches a gem in game one, but throws about 95 pitches. We were a little short-handed (ie. graduation stuff), so we played him the second game...but only at DH. His parents went bananas and asked how I could sit their son. It was the first week, he just pitched a ball game, and I was in charge. When they insisted, I told them they could drop his uniform off to me after it was washed. Problem solved. |
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| Posts: 744 | Location: Mt. Airy, MD, USA | Registered: December 28, 2003 | |
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HSBBWeb Old Timer
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Larry I would not have even asked them to clean the uniform--CIAO BAby
TRhit
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| Posts: 19139 | Location: Manchester, CT USA | Registered: December 26, 2002 | |
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Member
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quote: Originally posted by larrythompson:
...He pitches a gem in game one, but throws about 95 pitches. We were a little short-handed (ie. graduation stuff), so we played him the second game...but only at DH. His parents went bananas and asked how I could sit their son. It was the first week, he just pitched a ball game....
Wow, you have to deal with this kind of ignorant parents? Play 3B after pitching a whole game is never a good mix. Just how old is this kid? Trust me his parents will beg you to sit their son when they got some knowledges about the "real world" of baseball. Even play DH has the risk of arm injury when your arm is tired. Try fully extend your arm to swing at an outside pitch and miss it. The pressure on the back elbow is tremendous. |
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| Posts: 169 | Location: us | Registered: March 01, 2008 | |
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