You guys often talk about the correct position as the front foot lands. And the importance of mastering the correct form during this phase of the swing.

I thought it would be a good idea to start a topic that goes into greater detail about this topic. Feel free to post any detailed descriptions about how to achieve the proper position at toe touch, and what you feel is the proper position. Any pictures that you post would be very helpful as well.

I know very little about the details of this part of the hitting process. But, I do know that if you start wrong, you are probably going to finish wrong. Most of the bad swings that I see are a result of incorrect initial movements. I believe that if you start correctly, then everything else should pretty much take care of itself. That is why I am going to work hard with my team on getting into the proper position at toe touch. I figure if we can get that part of the swing down this year(as 9 year olds), then we are way ahead of most teams.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Leading with the heel will help prevent the hips from opening too soon.

I would suggest you scroll down this forum to Seadogs post of swing clips and review what going on during those swings as a start.

CV

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."

Earl Weaver

Rocket

Great topic..I am anxious to read what other say. You must consider this topic from two perspectives. Off the Tee and Off Live arm.

Many players toe comes down with the upper body in good shape off the tee. The game swing shows something altogether different.

The question of "great swing but can you hit with it?" has more realism than sarcasm sometimes.

Garciaparra is a great model ..like him or not. His hip line is pointed to the pitcher , his shoulder line to 2B , his bat is c-ocked and upper body loaded. He has reduced it to one move. Coil your hips in time with the pitcher coiling his( this seems to pull his front heel up) then he replaces his front foot and hits.

Some say he has a short stride. I think he coils and replaces his foot and I think the difference does mean something. THe last to coil is the first to fire. He leads with his hips.

Garciaparra is not in conflict with Epstein-isms. He makes it simple.

What does all this mean..starting in a good position is the only assurance that the toe will touch with everything in a good position.

I am playing the good odds!!

Swingbuster, what do you attribute this to?

quote:

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Many players toe comes down with the upper body in good shape off the tee. The game swing shows something altogether different.

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I happen to agree.

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

Bighit15,

I know you addressed your question to swingbuster, but...

In many cases that I've seen, FEAR plays a part. At the time that they should be loading the upper body, they're still waiting to see if the pitch is going to hit them. Then, by the time they realize that it isn't, there's no time left to load properly, so they just drop the hands and swing.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but, from what I've seen, there are other signs coupled w/ this that lead me to believe FEAR to be a possible culprit (i.e. stepping in the bucket).

Big HIt,

I did tee work with three HS players last week. I got them to load(scap load their shoulders)during their stride into toe touch having the hands back and the bat centered at toe touch.

They had power, gap to gap direction, stopped circling the ball on the ground to third and I thought they "got it".

Watched them take L screen BP the next week. All three were back to their old ways. It was disappointing.

Why do they do it?
1. old habits dating back to LL
2. ball fear? true many times but this was 48 mph
3. not being able to multi-task i.e. working the upper half back as the front side moves forward and hips open. It is a complex move

4. have not had the benefit of video analysis to get a mental picture

5. Not truely believing how important it is to their success as a hitter

My own son cannot do it all the time and he knows better so we are working like Nomar....successfully .

These kids play three sports and there is not enough hours in the day

quote:

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Originally posted by swingbuster:
2. ball fear? true many times but this was 48 mph

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Though they may not be afraid of BP-speed pitches, perhaps habits engrained at the plate during games are just hard to break?

True Sandman..

They are conditioned to run first hit second. Also not conditioned to escape inward maybe. Can't commit to the pitch.......

Does the slight seperation at toe touch(hips at pitcher, and the shoulders at 2nd) occur during the stride, before the stride, or as the toe is landing? I am trying to figure out if you should start in this position or if you coil to that position during the stride.

Also, I would like to have a picture of the proper position of the hands/bat at toe touch.


Thanks for all your help so far.

Though this doesn't really answer your first question about when the separation occurs, it may address your second request - though it is more like at "heel drop" than at "toe touch". I made it this morning for a Batspeed.com X-factor Stretch thread.


FWIW, after a quick glance at some of the clips (esp. from pitcher view), I'm guessing that we'll find that this separation occurs in varying degrees at all 3 of the time times you mentioned - before, during and after the stride. Perhaps it's more important that the hitter achieve some of this separation before launch than exactly at what point they started.

Let's see what others say.

Sandman..totally agree.
I like to get some in the waiting period and stretch it in the heel/drop early rotation. Also make sure the hips turn to completion on each swing, especially middle in pitches.

You will see it done several ways. In youth ball you will notice a conspicuous absence of it through the entire swing.

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/nomar3.mpeg

*di**d

Rocket,

Follow the Glauss clip to toe touch:
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Glauss02.mpeg

Notice the hands are back, about shoulder height. Front shoulder slightly closed, hips about parallel to the plate. Bat is back and ready to go. Swingbuster would say it is centered. Feet can be closed (like Glauss) to 45 degrees open. Body is centered between his feet. Line along the toes would be about parallel to the plate.

Toe touch is not a destination, it is a point along the way. Glauss already knows he is going to swing by the time touch touch occurs.

No stride drills are an excellent way to incorporate this into the swing. You can put the kids in this position so they can feel it and get used to it.

Nick

Swingbuster, thanks for the response. I agree with your assessment, all but number 2, but that could be a factor, but shouldn't be. Thanks

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

Nick,

You mentioned the body (weight) centered.

I like to look at three things.

Is the bat centered, is the weight centered and is the ball centered( 1/2 the way between the mound and home plate at toe touch.)

A neat hitting spread sheet could be made to grade batters on each pitch in these three areas. Batters that got their bat in position, their weight balanced , while the ball is 1/2 the way home would likely hit for a high average. I think I can watch those things on each pitch...or I think I can. Maybe these things are what we are really seeing when we say a guy has a great swing

Just a few more questions!

At what point does the inward turn of your shoulders become too much of a turn? Any good cues for this motion?

Do you think early seperation(between shoulders and hips) is important in regards to power for a young player(9 or 10 years old)? I believe it is very important. They seem to slap the ball without a good coil at the beginning of the swing. They lose connection between the hands and the shoulder too early in the forward motion of the swing. But, I would be interested in hearing what you think!


Thanks for all your help.

This is a General Items Topic?

Rocket,

I don't like the term turn. Watched BP tonight for JV bunch. Standing by a kids' Dad and said if he keeps his hands back he will hit it 70 more feet. He said "tell him". I said" keep your hands back and the bat cocked until your toe touches. Bang.... He started hitting shots. For most kids keeping the shoulders in and hands c-ocked until the hips begin to rotate open is plenty of separation if their hips fire aggressively. I watch the lead elbow at toe touch. If it is behind the belly button there will be good bat speed( as seen from the 1st B dugout)

Game ..we are just speaking in general terms here

Thanks Swingbuster.


So, the inward coil of the shoulders is a result of getting the hands back during the stride and while the hips are opening. Does this mean you should teach young hitters to get the hands back early and leave them there, or would you have them load(scap load) during the pre-swing movements?


Have a great day!