Didn't realize it was soooo late....

West Coast time is 3 hours behind-LOL

Enjoy BB> PG> and all the rest!

Will speak with you all manana.

Great piece on Ryan at Minor League baseball site. Glad he got the call up to the bigs.

What a great kid!!!!

Shep

Linear, you haven't agreed with anyone from this site. You don't believe anyone who's a high school coach. You don't believe in anyone who's an NCAA coach. You don't even believe someone who's been in the pro's and gotten 1000 plus hits. So tell me what do you believe in? And Please tell uss, why exactly are you here on the HSBBWeb? What do you think your purpose is here on this site?

quote:

And, you can not properly use your middle if you're thinking hands. Or, if you don't understand the significance of posture. Thinking hands will not allow you to become one with the bat. Thinking hands will force you to go to the ball with the hands.......Now how do you adjust?

Linear, I will stand by what I said again in an earlier post>The hands respond to messages sent via hand-eye coordination and are manipulated by movement of incoming pitch, location of pitch, and serve as the pair of tools that serve as the messenger, so to speak, between the physical body and mental brain.

This is not to say the lower body and center still do not serve as foundation just because your hands are sending messages to the brain during the unlocking process of the rotational swing. Do you follow me?

In other words, just because your hands "naturally" respond to these variables in various stages of the swing which control the position of the bat at contact doesn't mean that the hitter "is too handsy".

Shep's Take
PS ( Remember what AB said about reverse spin and half moon impressions left on bat? That is the "lift" of the hitter's swing which gets the ball in the air for HR distance and line-drives,
Have also heard it refered to as uppercut or upperswing in extension of high finish) Just an added note

To his defense, I understand what Mr. Linear is talking about. Barry Bonds does has the best "posture" in the game. Another term for that is "staying back". Or keeping your front side quiet. No one says "posture" in pro ball. What you are talking about is important. It is hard to teach kids to have it. It is something that you learn over time. But it is important. And that myth that professional players give bad instruction was made up by a guy like you. I learned more my first spring training than I ever did from my high school, college, or any other coaches combined. We used to joke about that myth in the clubhouse. It makes guys like you feel better about never playing Mr. Linear. I don't wish to argue with you anymore. I am here to be a resource for people. Not to argue.

Great stuff.

A few comments, sorry for any new jargon,but some of the words have been used in previous thread might appear for sake of continuity.

shep-

you mentioned Aaron from the batspeed clips and where his foot came down. The "cue" I prefer to describe this is the Lau/Lau Jr one about controlling in vs out by the timing of when the front knee firms up. Sooner on inside,later on outside. This will often result ina difference in where the foot gets down (more toward bucket for more inside) but you have to think of this in a timing sense.not in the sense of where you are goingto put the foot or you will be late.

Epstein says "let the outside ball get deep". Again it's better to think of this in a primarily timing sense.

Linear-

How to describe quick in/quick out vs short to long through.

The desired short to long through is a result of creating swing quickness the way buster describes it as "early connection" or "early batspeed". In this case the description "early" is primarily in a space/location sense. Becasue you coil and uncoil the body well (Epstein "body torque")you can wait on the ball while the upper body stays more closed and the hands "stay back". Then when it's time, you can accelerate more qiuickly and hit the ball with a good extenbsion sequence before your stroke decelerates and turns into a 2 piece swing.

In your guru's "quick swing", the body can't stay closed/hands can't stay back. Coil is lacking and acceleration (and ability to adjust late/wait on ball is minimized) is slow. The swing has to be started early and the body spins as the 2 piece deceleration/reacceleration is prevented by handpath "hook".

You can be quick the old fashioned way (good) or the new guru way (spinhook/bad).The good way gives the half moon or NIKE swish shape as mentioned by buba (thanks for joining in).

Linear-

"MLB guys can't instruct".

I am more of a philosopher and theoirst am not so much an instructor. My observation is that MLB types are not interested in philosophy and are not typically good at science or theory, but they CAN instruct anyway. If you don't have all these skills,the MLB experience is the best of the options. Epsecially concerning the hitting AND swing info, both of which are necessary.

Linear-

Can't move the middle if you are thinking of the hands.

PGStaff-

I think the hands are where all the sensation is. You better get the hands to make the middle move however it needs to to get the early connection/early batspeed. As buster has decribed,this often requires getting the very early parts of the swing right so when the quick parts of the swing come, you are in a position to proceed well.

I agree with much (not all) of what Linear is saying... to talk about hands to young (HS or younger) hitters confuses them. Maintaining connection early is vital. Also many accomplished hitters (Gwynn/Morgan are great examples) are terrible at communicating the swing...(not talking about AB here) they will describe Bond's perfect rotational swing using words like (he really got his arms extended etc) when in fact what they saw was follow thru. That doesn't mean they don't know how to hit...but the words they use don't mean what they think they mean. That being said i will listen to them all day because their thought process while hitting is what interests me. I can teach my 15 and 10 yr olds to swing...probably very close to the way Linear would...but it's the decisions they make in the box (along with natural ability or not) that will make them successful or not.
Question....How do you instruct a correct follow-thru (extend toward the pitcher) without teaching to disconnect?

Major league baseball's track record of developing hitters is atrocious......Yet, they develop the best in the world.

How can it be both?

They pick and choose the best of the best every year. They are working with what appears to be the best athletes, or the athletes that show the best chance to make it..........yet the percentage that do is atrocious.

I refer you to Rob Ellis' 13 Reasons Why Pro Baseball Can't Teach Hitting. It's linked on this site somewhere. I believe it was Blue Dog that posted it.

And, my criticision is not of Andy or his ability or the level he achieved. My criticism is of the system that has been around for over 100 years and they still can't agree on a definition of a good swing.

The old boys club.

And, if it weren't for some "lay" people, including my favorites, but also others that I think have steered off track lately, it still wouldn't be getting done.

MLB, through their minor league system, provides a great training opportunity. Where else can you get 500 or more at bats per year against the best up and comers in the world? It is the ultimate "trial and error" opportunity.

The problem is that is far as they go. They throw you to the dogs.....survival of the fittest. Nothing close to good instruction is offered on any large scale.

Why isn't there a hitting coach on every minor league team??? They spend incredible amounts on salaries as they sign players and won't spend a nickel on a coach that works with the players everyday, day in, day out.

Why?......Are they short on money?

1.) No one is convinced any of them know what they are talking about........and they are right.

2.) Few have ever shown significant consistent results.

A good coach should be able to put guard rails on that trial and error. He should be able to shorten the learning curve. He should be able to use video, show what is right, teach what is right, work on getting it right, and then send the player to that outstanding trial and error opportunity.

MLB baseball hitting instruction is the equivalent of telling a high school freshman..."Here's your chemistry book. Test is Friday."

I predict a change is coming......far down the road....but, this internet thingy will have a similar effect on instruction as the sabrematricians had on which "numbers" are the most meaningful.

quote:

They pick and choose the best of the best every year. They are working with what appears to be the best athletes, or the athletes that show the best chance to make it..........yet the percentage that do is atrocious.

Linear,

Other than just sounding bitter... this makes no sense!!!!

There are only so many jobs… The percentages that make it will stay the same no matter who they are working with or how much better they get!

For each one called up – one gets sent down! The percentages will always be atrocious... even if you are coaching them all.

I give you respect for all that you have learned about hitting and your passion to share it. However, sometimes I get the impression that you have quit the learning part. It seems that no matter what sound information might be out there, you will never change your thinking. The only certain thing is that everything changes.

You are a big believer in the "old way was not the best way", yet I’m afraid any new ways will slip right past you. It takes an open mind or you won't notice if "there is something better than your way". You will have become that stubborn establishment that you argue against!

Don’t take that as a slam, I’m one of the few that really appreciates and enjoys your input and knowledge. Though, I can not understand your demeaner and bitterness at times.

PG

Always enjoy your comments. And, you're one of the few here that "get it".

But, did God say there could only be 32 (or whatever) mlb teams?

And, how many players hit under .250 but are there because of their defense.

Scout

I know nothing about what Ellis teaches.

But, I believe his article is dead on.

Funny how you can bring up the evils of minor league instruction but no one else can.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

But, did God say there could only be 32 (or whatever) mlb teams?

No - God has nothing to do with it.

The free market dictates the number of MLB teams in existence.

I'm trying to get an answer on a specific swing trait.... when I look at the overhead view of Pete Rose at www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html I think I see what my son's hitting coach would call "hook barrel". He looks like he stays connected forever. I don't see this in other clips (Chipper Jones for example). My son's instructor preaches getting extended on the follow thru toward the pitcher... which i see in most MLB clips. Right or wrong??

quote:

Major league baseball's track record of developing hitters is atrocious......Yet, they develop the best in the world.

How can it be both?

I'll preface my comments by saying that I like much of what Linear brings to the table regarding pure swing mechanics, and I've learned to turn a deaf ear to the rest of the nonsense.
I use the term "pure swing mechanics" because IMO there's often a significant difference between what we see in the cage and what we see on the field.
I'd suggest that if Linear and his guru were to venture out and witness minor league hitters in a practice environment, they'd probably have a very difficult time picking out the guys who will succeed at a higher level. Other than the few really elite talents, the herd starts to bunch up more and more as you climb the ladder. I'd suggest that in pro ball, there are few hitters that are not pretty solid mechanically.
In football, we marvel when a guy like Tom Brady or Joe Montana comes along and, despite not fitting the physical model we all want, he succeeds like a mother.I've come to believe very strongly that the athletes who succeed at the highest level are the ones whose brain is able to process information well enough (slow down the action)so that their physical talents can succeed at that level.
I think this is true for every level of competition...from HS to college..college to pro.
In baseball hitting, this manifests itself in a player's ability to adjust to that "better" curveball..that fastball with a little more cheese and movement. It shows up in the ability to recognize pitches he can and cannot hit well.
In other words, how often does a hitter give himself the opportunity to put that grooved swing on the right pitch?
Unfortunately, this ability is not quantifiable, and the only way of determining it is to play the game.
Hence...the 50 round player draft and the layers of minor league ball.

quote:

Originally posted by rbinaz:
I'd suggest that if Linear and his guru were to venture out and witness minor league hitters in a practice environment, they'd probably have a very difficult time picking out the guys who will succeed at a higher level...

And neither can mlb baseball so what does this prove?

However, if you sent me video clips of 100 hitters I bet I can tell you which ones won't make it without a significant change in their swing.

And, if you sent me those hitters I could define a good swing to them, suggest what they are doing wrong and what has to change and why.

The others fall into your mental category.

What percentage is which, I don't know. But I'm quite sure it's a large percentage that struggle with mechanics.

Troy

I don't have enough overhead clips to comment. I've only seen a few....Rose, Robinson, Williams, Manny. Each look a little different.

But, I sure like hook the hand path better than extend toward the pitcher.

troy,

I know a lot of coaches who teach the same thing as your son's instructor.

Thanks ...Linear/PG ...both of you....the more I look the more I see that there are many MLB hitters on each side of this (Glaus/Renteria seem to stay connected forever)..Although it is hard to see on the non-overhead shots... Some I've heard say "the ball is gone so why does it matter"? Thanks again

Which of these three minor leaguers have a chance?



No cheating!!

I know nothing about this, but I like the middle hitter's swing better. Just thought I'd share...

The question on the table is which one has a chance.

I'll answer your question later.

I'd like to see what the posters are capable of seeing.