quote:

The hip "should" open and the body rotate at contact, not before. If you broke down these swings, you would see that they are all doing it....

4genball, is this what you see Manny and Bonds doing?....I don't....







Also, can we talk about this statement you made?

quote:

While it is true what was said about the front elbow and it's effect on the hands rolling over, the main reason to keep the front elbow up is so that your hands can clear through the zone and "unfold" without having to open the front side.

How can this be true when MLB hitters always open their front side well before the hands come through?

quote:

Originally posted by 4genball:
The lower half drives the hands and 90% of the problems with the hands stem from poor lower body mechanics. If you focus on the proper technique in your lower half, (the proper pivot/closed front side/square to the plate) the natural "hand/eye" ability of the athlete will take care of itself.

Kind of.

If your hands are wrong so will your lower body.

If you lower body is wrong your hands can't do what they need to do.

To 'fnd' the right fit....the right syncage (if that is a word) you must begin with the hands. Their handset and their function. And please do not confuse the hand function with arm function. Arms move the hands. The hands move the barrel.

The hands dominate the system. That is why mlb players constantly discuss the need to have their hands right.

The lower body is slave to the hands. Get the handset right....and the hand function right....and the lower body will respond properly....unless of course you've been taught that the lower body does something that it actually doesn't do.....ie.....stay closed until launch....then you are therefore trying to impose an improper lower body onto a proper handset/usage.....and you won't be happy with your results.

They both are important. They both can interrupt the success of the other. Once you are sure what is supposed to happen by each....the hands will control the process.

Give the hands the proper goal and the lower body will fall in line and help produce it unless there is a concscious attempt to inhibit the lower body or make it do something not 'in line with' what it will do naturally if allowed.

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And please do not confuse the hand function with arm function. Arms move the hands.

And, this is why the proper movement of the front elbow is so very important.......

4genball, I don't know anything about what Rudy teaches.....I have never seen his material......But, I don't see MLB hitters doing what YOU are representing as his teaching......

Do you?

I must say I don't know everything Rudy teaches.

But I'm pretty sure he teaches get the front foot down early.

A clarification is necessary....what does he mean by "down"? Does he mean planted with weight on it?

If so I am very much opposed to that teaching.

The front foot is not weighted until after launch on most swings. The act of swinging weights that foot.

Talk about incoherent buffoonery.

Go back to your guru and show him how you are infecting a message board with your bogus religion.

Does Jarmuke teach that the lower body has a direct effect of role of the top hand in the swing?

Mr. Jaramillo, by studying the most successful hitters in the history of the game, took what they all did and simplified it into five "roots" of success or "the five simple steps" (reverse engineering if you will). He did not invent the perfect swing. He just put it into words and a teaching process. The process I have tried to explain, as I understand it from the Jaramillos, is at the "optimum". No one does it perfectly but the closer you get to the optimum, the more success you have.

Mr. Jaramillo says that Bonds comes closer to the optimum than anyone in the game. Steroids or not, he is arguably the best hitter to ever play.

Now I'm sure every one of you have more skins on the wall than Mr. Jaramillo. So those of you that were/are a MLB hitting instructor, have played in the big's and/or are currently on a major league roster, please send me a PM so we can compare notes.

The rest of you, look at the video of Bonds and Ramirez. Quit looking at the front side. Watch their pivot leg in relation to the hands. Can you not see the pivot knee driving to the ball. Especially Bonds, watch his pivot leg start to go to the ball a split second before his hands start. It is this action of the pivot leg that gets your hands to the ball. You say hitters have to have their "hands right". Do all hitters start their hands from the same place? All their swings are not going to look or be the same with their hands because of pitch location and timing. This is what I was talking about with the natural "hand/eye" ability. Their lower half however, should be the same on evey swing with the pivot acting like the scope of a rifle. The only time you should really see the front side open up early is when they are fooled or their timing is off.

By the way, Aaron Jaramillo, Rudy's nephew, today took a team of 15 year old boys and with wooden bats, pounded out fifteen hits and beat one of the top 16/17 year old travel teams in the State of Texas 9-5. The opposing pitcher, who is one of the top prospects in the State, was consistently 88-90.

You can argue with me but you can't argue with success. However, if any of you are or have been more successful than Rudy, I will humbly apologize, ask your forgiveness, and pay heed to you for all on this site to see.

quote:

The only time you should really see the front side open up early is when they are fooled or their timing is off.

Are you sure Rudy says this stuff?

The front hip HAS to open/clear before there is a path for the hands.

The act of opening the hips is also part of the creation of separation between the upper and lower body. A loading mechanism.

All of this is done LONG before (relatively speaking) the hitter launches his swing.

Yes, the rear knee goes down and in at launch.

But BEFORE that happens, the body loads through separation.....lower body open against a closed upper half.

To deny that is to deny video of the best hitters in the world. I don't care what your name is.

The lower body works like the people mover at the airport. From the moment you pick up your front foot you push lightly with the rear foot which creates forward momentum and that, accompanied by the rear hip push against the ball & socket joint...causes the hips begin to open. This happens in all swings at the same time, in the same rhythm, as soon as you lift the front foot, based on the each hitters ability to "dance" with the pitcher. This MUST happen all the time. It is the lower body running start. It clears the hips...it creates a hand path...it's involved in loading the system. (Yes....the hips opening early is actually loading....not unloading.)

Once your lower body 'people mover' is in place you 'step onto it' when you launch and your upper body gets a HUGE boost from that just as you get a big boost when you step on the people mover at the airport.

See the Bonds clip above.

This puts the upper body in control....how you use the hands and arms controls the system....and how you use the hands and arms creates a 'launch window' which is how hitters learn to adjust to pitch speed.

Any attempt to keep the hips closed....or to pause the lower body AFTER you've picked up the lead foot will ruin the hitter.

More lives than a cat.

After reading all this it was interesting to hear Pete Rose this morning---he said keep it simple---do not complicate matters---see it--hit it---think about driving it thru the pitcher

I fully agree---all the gurus, claymation images etc mean nothing---kids do not undertstand all that jibberish ---keep it simple

Also keep in mind that all the great hitters have God given abilities that the normal good player does not so you cannot emulate them

That is why the Jaramillos are such great teachers. They teach the swing in "5 SIMPLE steps" and that was my point from the begining of this thread. This thread is supposed to be about "teaching" and I was trying to speak to the best "teaching method".

The original question, and probably 99.9% of all questions I've seen on this site come from parents of young players who are trying to help their baller improve. All the talk of hands/hips/rotate/foot down early/ etc. is all too complicated for a young mind to grasp and cannot be taught correctly by the average dad. It is also focusing on the front side which is like putting the cart before the horse.

While I do agree with a lot of what was said, (even by Quincy) (based on my understanding of the Jaramillos' teachings of the biomechanics of the swing) all those points are end results of the process and you cannot effectively teach it that way. If you can get the hitter to focus on letting his "true pivot" take his hands to the ball, you will have a simplified teaching process which is easy to understand, and again, the natural hand/eye/timing/hip rotation/follow through will all take care of itself. Bonds talks about "2 feet to the ball". The swing is started and finished within a 2 foot area. Everything after contact is really deceleration which is meaningless because it has no effect on the batted ball. So with that being true, teach the "linear" process from the start(seperation)to the finish(contact)using the backside not the frontside as the driver.

Nothing wrong with simplifying.

But please......type something that matches video of the best so you can say looky here...when you go to the video to demonstrate to them what you mean.

One little clip....the Bonds clip above....disproves much of what you've said.

You only see it the way you want to, which is backwards. Like TRhit said, you cannot try and emulate the MLB swing. These athletes are the most gifted in all of sports.

For you to say the front hip has to open/clear before there is a path for the hands is ridiculous. Are you saying the hips have to open up to hit the outside pitch? If you let the ball get deep and "square it up", the hands only travel approx. 2 feet, from seperation to contact. The hips open because the hands are coming through after contact. The top hand and pivot should drive to the ball at the same time. If you try to teach the top hand, the student will end up rolling over the ball and pulling everything. If you teach it the way you say, with the hips opening first, the result is a flying open hip and the inability to hit the outside pitch. You must stay square!! You cannot stay square if the first motion in your swing is to open up the front side. It's obviously too complicated of a concept for the average person to grasp. That's why Mr. Jaramillo is the highest paid hitting instructor in the history of baseball and the only one that will be inducted into the baseball hall of fame.

This thread is done from my end. It's like trying to explain to a blind man what the color pink looks like.

Nothing you wrote matches the video.



Front side opens LONG before launch and yet he stays square.

Study up.

Front hip opens...stretch created between upper and lower body.....stretch and fire launch.

Your 'hips stay square' is simply not done. And has nothing to do with hitting the outside pitch. The lead leg/hip must get out of the way so the swing can be executed.

You have at least one thing right....the rear hip/leg/knee action is very important. In fact, watch the rear hip come up and through as your rear knee goes to the ball. This hip action can not happen unless there is 1) a good load in the rear hip and 2) the lead leg/hip has gotten out of the way.

For you to understand the swing you have to first recognize/determine the 'go' frame....and the position they are in at 'go'.....the position from which they launch...their position at commitment.

Then watch the frames before 'go'. You will see the loading/opening of the lower body against the closed upper body.

It amazes me how people will teach separation in throwing but avoid it in hitting. They are quite sure the shoulders back and the hips open is THE way in throwing yet insist that the hip must stay closed....that the hitter must stay square.....in hitting.

You have all the time you need (with practice) to learn how to use the 'wait' time to get yourself loaded/separated.....so that you can launch and spend immediately at 'go'.

An absolute for the quickest launch possible is separation.....stretch between the upper and lower body. You can not separate AND keep the hips square.

Square is not bad.....it's just it's the upper body/shoulders that has to remain square....not the lower body.

quote:

If your hands are wrong so will your lower body.

If you lower body is wrong your hands can't do what they need to do.

Your comment makes no sense simply because your lower body is going to be the same on every swing. Your hand will travel to the ball where ever it is located so they are not going to do the same thing. You wanna have a consistent swing and leading with your hands will cause for your swing to be inconsistent. If you listen to what 4genball is saying. The hitters are doing exactly what he says. Your base has to start before your hands. You can put footage of any major league hitter on this site and 90% of them are going to start their base first and have the same alignment at contact. This is universal to all successful hitters. Whether in little league or the Major leagues


Just my two cents!!!

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Originally posted by wayback:



More lives than a cat.

Yes, and the hair is standing up on my neck! I remember posting once about everyone having a "signature."

quote:

Originally posted by BornAgain:
Nothing you wrote matches the video.



Front side opens LONG before launch and yet he stays square.

Study up.

Definition of "LONG" please? If you view the front toe, he's attempting to keep his front toe closed. However, if you put a cursor on his belt buckle. You'll see that the hips do start before the shoulders. However, "seperation" is a vague term when, in fact, it is tenths of a second. Of course there is no denying that the hips do start before the hands or shoulders to open.

The Chipper video is somewhat different in that the front toe lands open. Therefore, the argument could be made that the hips were also opening sooner than the shoulder complex and hands by a larger margin. Still, tenths of a tenth of a second.

You tell me when the 'go' frame is and then I'll define LONG for you.

quote:

Originally posted by BornAgain:
You tell me when the 'go' frame is and then I'll define LONG for you.

Since you know I don't believe in the concept of "go" to count, can't do that. I gave you toe touch or heel down, use either one. Frames or tenths.