quote:

by PG: minor leaguers do not make the Major League clubs any money! In fact, they cost the Major League clubs a lot of money just giving these players an opportunity to develop. What job exists where the employee makes lots of money without the employer making any from their efforts?

should that be properly footnoted to Bud?


again PG, you guys are awesome & to be commended for the job you do re player scouting/eval ...
BUT, you may be so close to the situation your view is impared ..
parroting the "company line" of your customer will likely ruffle fan feathers

minor leaguers are employees in training , just like trainees at Goodyear, IBM, Microsoft, CNN, Walmart, Joe's Car Wash, or any other business -
their training expense is MORE THAN JUSTIFIED historicly by their future contributions
(btw, many corp trainees don't make it) -
IF the training cost is not justified that corp isn't around too long ...
and what corp can just increase revenue by raising their prices every yr even if their product is "less desirable" than last yrs??

baseball has been around a looong while ...
so, we must "guess" it works the same way in MLB -
why guess?? ... because their books are SECRET!! ..
tho MLB crys there is not enough profit, they don't fully disclose financials, even to THEIR OWN players assoc.,
& their franchise market values (both MLB & MiLB) continue to spiral ever higher.

hmmmm ... odd for a business losing $$$

Selig made $14.5 million last year from his MLB salary, expenses and bonuses. Players are the product. Minor league baseball is Product Development AND Production. Products only produce income at market. MLB happens to have 95% plus of product not reach market. Coaches are employees, imo. Nobody goes to a game to watch them.

"If nobody has any objections, I am going to send a note to Julie and see if we can get this thread in the Golden Threads forum"



Thank you for the suggestion! I am creating a shortcut in Golden Threads so that members and visitors can find this thread in both places.

Julie

Thanks Julie for moving this and all your hard work

pg
very interesting top 10 list. it would also be interesting to know how many late round picks there are in the majors. i don't know the answer but i think it would open some eyes. but i'm just guessing.

quote:

Posted by Bee - BUT, you may be so close to the situation your view is impared ..
parroting the "company line" of your customer will likely ruffle fan feathers

My mind might be impaired, but I think my view is fairly accurate. Sorry I didn't understand the parroting the company line part?

I did like your comparison to trainees, but baseball is a game. Most would all choose baseball over Goodyear or Walmart.

And I don't recall saying MLB clubs are losing money. I'm just trying to answer some questions that have been asked here as honestly as I can. I have no interest in misleading anyone or parroting any company lines.

I believe minor league players should be paid more. I believe many MLB players are grossly over paid. I think there are some unfair things that happen. I really like Justin Upton, but don't understand how any high school player could be worth more than what they pay to operate their complete minor league system for an entire year. I just don't know what to do about all the stuff that goes on. Don't know what to do about Bud Selig's astronomical salary. I agree that lots of things are out of whack.

And it still makes you feel great when a young player beats all the odds in baseball, whether that is pro, college, high school, or any other level.

All that said... The way it is... there's a great big reward for those who reach their goal. And for the rest, it still turns out to be an education with real experience. All of the important lessons don't have to take place in a class room. That is why they came up with internships.

quote:

I didn't understand the parroting the company line part?

thanks for the reply - I appologize if I misunderstood your comment

the corp comparison was to illustrate that training is done thru-out the business world, not that anyone would choose another career over baseball.

and MiLB pay is what it is .. if it was too unfair, they'd have difficulty filling rosters

I think I've figured the color thingy out now


"minor leaguers do not make the Major League clubs any money! In fact, they cost the Major League clubs a lot of money just giving these players an opportunity to develop"

perhaps that just sounds like MLB's "company line" regarding their generosity ...
in fact it's just not true at all.

player/employee development is a necessary element to MLB, but the profit payback for development costs is just deferred to a later time, as it is in any other businesses.

if developments costs were never recouped, MLB would have been out of business long ago or run by the government. it's misleading to cite an example of a particular player/bonus and reach any conclusion ... but it's pretty easy to see in a historic perspective

it doesn't matter how much they spend if it's "recouped plus" later -

Forbes magazine estimates values of MLB teams rose about 30% from 2004 to 2006 w/revenue increases far outpacing player salaries

so pick your favorite team .. compare it's value of 10 yrs ago to todays value.
a portion of that increase in value is directly attributable to the "product on the field"
aka: player development.



btw, neither Goodyear nor IBM has had "state of the art" corporate headquarters & development centers built thru-out the US by us taxpayers

Bee,

Once again, I was just trying to reply as honestly as possible to a topic brought up by someone else. I'm surely not disputing anything you have said.

Didn't say development costs were ruining MLB organizations. Just said, it costs a MLB club around $23,000 each year to develop those players. That amount does not cover things like insurance, instructional ball, scouting departments, etc.
Just trying to honestly answer a question. sorry if it sounded like the "company line". I will always be on the side of the players, before the pro clubs or colleges. Possibly it wasn't written the way it was intended?

But to continue...

All 30 teams do not profit exactly the same. (The Yankees make more than the D'Rays) The real value in most teams is if and when a team is sold.

The bottom line is players decide what they want to do. Microsoft makes more money than a MLB club... That doesn't mean they will pay their trainees above whatever they think is right.

This topic is not about MLB clubs and their earnings (though it did turn that way). It's about players being released and treated unfairly. I personally do not feel like players are treated any more unfairly than most other occupations. It's not easy by any means, it is the entertainment field. I'm not sure what other athletes, actors, singers, etc., are compensated while in training.

All that said, I still think things are out of line. I just don't have the business knowledge to understand it all, let alone argue about it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by PG: minor leaguers do not make the Major League clubs any money! In fact, they cost the Major League clubs a lot of money just giving these players an opportunity to develop. What job exists where the employee makes lots of money without the employer making any from their efforts?

should that be properly footnoted to Bud?


again PG, you guys are awesome & to be commended for the job you do re player scouting/eval ...
BUT, you may be so close to the situation your view is impared ..
parroting the "company line" of your customer will likely ruffle fan feathers

minor leaguers are employees in training , just like trainees at Goodyear, IBM, Microsoft, CNN, Walmart, Joe's Car Wash, or any other business -
their training expense is MORE THAN JUSTIFIED historicly by their future contributions
(btw, many corp trainees don't make it) -
IF the training cost is not justified that corp isn't around too long ...
and what corp can just increase revenue by raising their prices every yr even if their product is "less desirable" than last yrs??

baseball has been around a looong while ...
so, we must "guess" it works the same way in MLB -
why guess?? ... because their books are SECRET!! ..
tho MLB crys there is not enough profit, they don't fully disclose financials, even to THEIR OWN players assoc.,
& their franchise market values (both MLB & MiLB) continue to spiral ever higher.

hmmmm ... odd for a business losing $$$

I don't feel that PG is too close to the situation at all. What I think is that he has a lot of knowledge about what is really happening in baseball and the people on this board are fortunate to have him posting here.

quote:

It's not easy by any means, it is the entertainment field. I'm not sure what other athletes, actors, singers, etc., are compensated while in training.

Good point. How many times have we heard of the struggling actor or singer bussing tables in NY or LA waiting for their opportunity to arrive?

If you look at some of the beautiful ball parks out there in MiLB, and built by the taxpayers as Bee noted, I don't believe people are losing money operating these franchises. They have wealthy owners just like the big league clubs and I am guessing they expect to turn a profit.

I do believe what Bud Selig makes is absurd. They could offer that job out at one to two million dollars per year and have hundreds of people lining up to take it who are more competent imho. They should take about 10 million of his income and distribute a couple thousand each to all the struggling players out there.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

I don't feel that PG is too close to the situation at all. What I think is that he has a lot of knowledge about what is really happening in baseball and the people on this board are fortunate to have him posting here.

I agree

Regressing a bit to the thread's beginning:

Shane-- Your comment about getting a pyschologist and hoping to get your head right reminded me of a notable player in our local club, the Atlanta Braves: John Smoltz. It was a big deal a decade ago (+/-) when John was really struggling on the mound and ended up seeing a sports psychologist. It became very public and was a little bit controversial at the time. Not many had even heard of sports psychologists and the fact he was seeing one was fodder for teasing, debate, and much speculation. Look at the pay-off. He DID get his head together and has had a great run!

I understand he still sees his psychologist from time to time to stay on track. I hope the person you end up with does the same for you. Don't give it a second thought. Think of it as just another kind of coaching-- mental coaching.

quote:

by bbscout: I think is that he (PG) has a lot of knowledge about what is really happening in baseball and the people on this board are fortunate to have him posting here.

I agree with that and value your views as well

guess I was a bit confused by PG's view that player development costs are a gesture of MLB's generosity offering no return on the investment. your response seems to agree, so perhaps I'll reconsider my position

thanks as always

Quill- My dad brought something up about Smoltz seeing one the other day, but he never went in depth about it. Apparently he was just doin horrible and the guy turned him around. I dont know what his problem was but it is encouraging to know that even big leaguers see shrinks from time to time

Shane,
Many more than you realize seek help from time to time.
My understanding is that it is not uncommon for MLB players to seek out help, whether professional or through other players who have had similar mental blocks. However, interesting also is that many times mechanics need to be adjusted.
Randy Johnson went through a period of a few years where he struggled. One day Nolan Ryan noticed something that he was doing (pointing foot a SLIGHT bit to third, which threw his mechanics off). After adjustments he was fine. He states this in his book.
You might want to consider seeking advice regarding something in your delivery that may be off causing you to be unable to throw strikes, which in turn leads to fear of failing and anxiety. I thought it interesting that after some years of professional ball for Johnson, another pitcher picked up on what he was doing wrong.

Shane,
John was one of the first athletes to go public with his use of a psychologist, and I'd say he broke the ice. Lots of pros now have someone to help them with the mental side of the game.

John has spoken numerous times about his belief that his psychologist helped save his career. I believe he was coming off a big injury and couldn't get past it on the mound. Mostly a mental problem, not physical. Guess he had developed the yips?! At any rate, he credits his psychologist for the turn around and his long career. Good luck to you! I hope you find someone you jive with and who can talk you through.

Shane,
I don't think of going to a sport psychologist as going to "the shrink." Its just another way to improve your game, like seeking out a personal trainer, hitting instructor, nutritionist. Its about getting an edge in a very competetive field.

The VAST majority of people on this site have acknowledged the absolute value of PG's posts.
Not once but many times...as well as your valuable input (bbscout).
Let me see, how does that old saying go? "birds of a feather stick together"
(Is that what "parroting" means )?

Nice post njbb, I've thought "mental game" should be the 5th tool...never thought BA was top stat anyway...the most valuable tool cannot be measured.
It (mental strength and exercise) is just one of the things that sometime need to be tweeked in this beautiful game. NO stigma anymore, the sharp guys know they need it, and they do not hesitate.

This thread has taken some tremendously informative turns and I am glad to see(at 8 pages into it) that Shane's situation and how he is handling it is still the main subject.

A few points FYI:

My son was a fairly low(#595) pick when he was drafted... he has been able to sneak through his organization's system, by-passing several first and second round picks, in large part due to opportunity caused by injuries to others. Right place, right time... grab it!

I chuckled when Walmart was brought into the discussion because my son worked there in his first off-season after being drafted. I often wonder just how far beyond being in charge of the candle aisle he would have managed to get(with no formal education) during the same period that he has been in pro ball.

Son's organization(notorous for their hesitance to spend $) has a psychologist on staff for their players. I met him at spring training, but am not sure if he is available to to all levels within the organization.

Keep after it Shane! Lots of folks appreciate you.