quote:

Originally posted by dawgduck:
For anybody that's interested you can get the TJ throwing program online and you can see just how strenuous this program is. TPM, let me know if you have any other questions.

Congrats on your sons speedy recovery.

Do have a link to the throwing program you could pass along?

Dawgduck,
First, I do not wish to sound cynical regarding your son's recent success, second to me, seems like a rush to get back before his senior year is over, get a better college opportunity, and seen by scouts before the draft. I understand this happens sometimes and there is success immediately, but some problems develop down the road, specifically shoulder issues. I think what also is important is that the coach who is coaching the TJS pitcher use good judgement. That's a HUGE factor to consider. What I find strange is the amount of throwing he is doing just returning.

I would never doubt Dr. Andrews, however, to my knowledge and that may not be much, most TJS pitchers not only need time to recover from surgery, but time to correct mechanical issues made that may have caused the injury in the first place, which is why it may take 12 months or more until you see a pitcher on the mound. From what I recently read, is that for a position player, rehab and back is 8-9 months, pitchers always need more time for recovery even when feeling well. If this program is and has been proven to be successful, why aren't more using it? Wouldn't one need data to see how the pitcher does in the future with shorter time than one with longer time in rehab?

While we all know that some things work for some, for others it doesn't, this fast track program you are suggesting that is avaliable online may not be the answer for everyone. I see you already have some asking for it.

If I had a young player who might be in this situation and read this I would be thinking, hey I can get my player back up and running in 6-7 months after TJS so he won't miss opoortunities. Each player and his family needs to take time to research rehab programs, discuss it with the doctor and the person doing the players rehab before they decide on what is best for them.

JMO.

Best of luck to your player.

I didn't know there was a "fast track" throwing program.

I would like the regular throwing program. If there is a fast track program....I'd like to see that one also.

TPM,


This is not a fast tract throwing program. My son is on the same throwing program as Dawgduck. In this program you throw every other day. My son started the throwing program at the beginning of the sixth month after surgery. The first step is 25 throws at 45 ft rest 5 minutes then another 25 throws. All throws are about 50%. A little over a month later you are throwing at 180 ft. The throwing program is very intense the most important part is the percentage of effort put into your throws. When my son got to the 180ft stage he had to throw 25 throws rest 5 mins 25 throws rest 5 mins then another 25 throws all at 180ft. He was then at the 7th month of his rehab. Our therapist said once you get past the 180ft distance with no symptoms you should have confidence in your arm. You then start throwing off of the mound.

In our son's case he was released to play second so we have slowed down on the mound work. The infeild throws are not as intense and this gives his elbow more time to heal. After the high school season he will start the mound work again.


This is the second stage of the rehab program (After you complete the first part of the throwing program and can throw at 180ft with no symptoms).

Warm up throws to 90ft.

Throw at each step two to three times without pain before progressing to next step.

Stage one - fastballs only

step one: interval throwing
15 throws off mound 50%

step two: interval throwing
30 throws off muond 50%

step three: interval throwing
45 throws off mound 50%

step four: interval throwing
60 throws off mound 50%

step five: interval throwing
30 throws off mound 50%

step six: interval throwing
30 throws off mound 75%
45 throws off mound 50%

step seven: interval throwing
45 throws off mound 75%
15 throws off of mound 50%

step eight: interval throwing
60 throws off mound 75%

Stage two: Fastballs only

step nine: interval throwing
45 throws off mound 75%
15 throws batting practice

step ten: interval throwing
45 throws off mound 75%
30 throws in batting practice

step 11: interval throwing
45 throws off mound 75%
45 throws batting practice

step 12: interval throwing
30 throws off mound 75% warm-up
15 throws off mound 50% breaking balls
45-60 throws in batting practice (fastball only)

step 13 : interval throwing
30 throws off mound 75%
30 breaking balls 75%
30 throws batting practice

step 14: interval throwing
30 throws off mound 75%
60-90 throws batting practice,25% breaking balls

step 15: Simulated game - progressing by 15 throws per workout



As you can see this program is very intense and designed to increase arm strength.

Also you should have a pitching coach or thrapist present to assure proper mescanics.

In my sons case he is only a junior in high school so we are going to take it slow, but at the same time it is important to not only do all the throwing but also the other rehab like the throwers ten and other work that your therapist has you do. If you don't your arm will not recover properly.

Hope this helps.

Banditsbb

quote:

Originally posted by banditsbb:
TPM,
In our son's case he was released to play second so we have slowed down on the mound work. The infeild throws are not as intense and this gives his elbow more time to heal. After the high school season he will start the mound work again.

I didn't mean fast track for throwing program, but just a faster track to get back on the mound sooner. I see another poster thought it was sounded sooner also.

Where's the work fit into fixing and practicing pitchers mechanical issues (if any) and practice or does that take place while pitching?

Thanks for the explanation.

Thanks banditsbb.

TPM,

I agree with your point about mechanic issue's and coming back to soon. The throwing program and rehab is your tract to get back on the mound. Then you work on mechanics and pitch count. What I was trying to show was that after the rehab and throwing program is complete your arm is strong enough to start pitiching but on a specific pitch count. At one point our therapist told us our son needed to start openning it up a little more. Even though the rehab throwing is intense it is important to complete every stage. It is important to not go to fast but also not go to slow.

In our son's case we are going to continue to work on strengthening his arm and work on his mechanics. The doctors still want him to start pitching this summer but in a regulated setting. We will take everything one step at a time. Our goal is for our son to be able to pitch competitively by fall, that will put him between 12 and 14 month's. We also have met players who came back alot sooner and are doing well.


Banditsbb

Robv,

The program I posted is the second stage or mound stage. The first stage is more for building arm strength.It's to much to type but when my wife gets home I'll have here copy it over so I can post it. If your looking for a good program to improve arm strength this will be it.


Banditsbb

banditsbb, thanks for posting the throwing program, I just got back to my computer.

TPM- Gary does a lot of shoulder exercises, this is stressed A LOT because the shoulder is usually weaker after TJ surgery. You actually start on shoulder exercises early in the rehab process with different strength bands.

As far as working on mechanics, he basically started all over. Gary started working on mechanics in the first stage, when he started throwing from flat ground but from 60 ft while he was using the pitching motion.

Like banditsbb said this is not the fast track throwing program. Some people come back from TJ surgery different than others. We have heard of people coming back like Gary, some have come back in 10 months, some a year and some two years. When Dr. Andrews looked at Gary 2 months he told us when we returned that Gary should be pitching. When I questioned the time period, he basically said that Gary's arm was healed but he needed to finish the rest of the program along with simulated games (4 to be exact, starting at 30 pitches and working up 75 pitches). If you look at Step 14, this was probably the toughest day to Gary, he has never thrown 120 pitches in one day. He actually took a week off after that session before we started his simulated games, but the next step was a simulated game with 30 pitches at full speed and he said he felt like that was a relief compared to the rest of the program.

I also wanted to say this, the TJ throwing program is done a lot by feel, some days they feel like throwing and some days they don't. Gary only had one set back early in the first stage and all you can do is rest and ice. Gary has been very determined to finish this program and he has pushed himself but not to the point of injury.

TPM- to answer your question about the scouts and the draft and other colleges. I think when Dr. Andrews told Gary back in Dec. that if he stuck to the program that he could see him pitching before his Sr. year was over, that was Gary's goal from that point on. All the other stuff is just gravy.

bandit,dawg
congratulations on your sons speedy recovery. i am no doctor but my son has been to alabama.as you know the shoulder is weaker than it was so i would caution you to watch the use before it is 100 % again.that comes from our experience. we followed dr Wilk's program as well and didn't throw from the hill untill 9 months.but as you say every one is different. i copied the following paragraph from dr Wilk's rehab page. you may find this interesting. or you may tell me to mind my own p's and q's, either way . good luck to your son's,i wish them much success.
----------------------------------------------------
Matt Beech, a player for the Philadelphia Phillies, was making his third rehabilitation start eleven months out of Tommy John surgery when he partially tore his new ligament. He underwent a second UCL reconstruction in 2000, and when asked about his situation, Beech said I could have taken it a bit slower, I was really aggressive in my throwing program all the way up until I reinjured myself if I could have waited a couple more months I probably would have been OK. (Greenfield and Rogers 2000). Beech has not returned to baseball since his second surgery.

20dad,


Always glad to hear from others experiences. In our sons case we have slowed the process. When Andrew was released to play second we stopped throwing off the mound. He now just does infeild practice at 75% and warmup throws up to ninty ft and his throwers ten program. After the high school season is over the therapist wants Andrew to start in the middle of the first throwing program. After he completes that he will then again go to the mound part of the throwing program. Andrew is only a junior so there is no rush for us.


When you state that Matt Beech hurt his arm at 11 months in his third start that meant he was probably throwing at 100% off the mound at 10 months and probably was pushing to hard. That seems a bit fast. IT is very important to follow the program to the letter. When it says throws are at 50% it means 50% and not any harder. Our therapist told Andrew that this is where most pitchers hurt their arms by trying to throw harder then they are supposed to. He said that even though you feel strong you are taking the chance of re-injurying your arm. After you complete the rehab you are still supposed to go very slow with a strict pitch count.

If you follow B.J Ryans rehab he is at eleven months going into his twelth month and has already pitched in major league games. I would imagine that he did alot of throwing off the mound before he was given the ok to throw at a 100%.

Again in our sons case the doctor wants him to get some innings this summer but on a very strict pitch count and if all goes well will be ready for fall ball and even then he will have limits. His main goal is to be ready and strong for his senior year.


Again 20dad thanks for your post and lets hope everyone in rehab has success in the future.



Banditsbb

one thing to consider,pro players are paid to pitch. weather they are on the mound at 9 months or 24 months,when they blow out their elbow again they have workmans comp. hs/college kids have a memory.

my son knew it was a very important fix. and probably a last chance,so we may have been more cautious in our rehab.

while it isn't my son,i'm nervous for you.i guess everytime i hear of the surgery i get nervous. when you think of all the players that never need it......... there is a reason for the ones that do.

i think you said your son hit 90? did he throw 90 before?

20dad,
You have a pm.

I have to agree with the above, and by no means meant to put a damper on this thread. However, I felt uncomfortable that it was presented in a way that may not be beneficial for everyone.

I have never been in the situation as you all have been, but I do know that if it did occur, slow and easy has been my understanding through watching son's pitching coach rehab many players. He tends to go with the approach that Banditsbb son has taken and has been 100% successful with his charges.

TPM & 20dad, Thank you for your responses and concern because I truly believe you both take any kids best interest to heart.It really made me start second guessing everything that we had done and I have lost a couple of days sleep because of it. I wanted to make sure Gary wasn't rushing back so I called Dr. Andrews today. I explained what Gary has already done (pitching with pitch count). He said that he was very happy with Gary and his progress and everything we were doing. He told me to continue with the pitch count up to 75 pitches but no more. He said for him to throw no more than 75 pitches and continue this through out the summer. I have truly been worried about this, because I don't want to sound like the kind of dad that would rush his son back.

dawg


Did Dr Andrews talk about time between the 75 pitch outings?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
dawg


Did Dr Andrews talk about time between the 75 pitch outings?

TRhit: yes he did. I told him that Gary threw 40 pitches April 18th and 60 pitches on April 25th. I then told him that he was schedueled to throw tomorrow and he said no to let him throw no more than 75 pitches. He said this should be his maximum number going thru the summer up unitl the Fall. Dr. Andrews said that Gary had to be very upfront with the coaches because even though he is on a pitch count it didn't mean that he HAD to throw that many pitches. He also said to work very hard on his shoulder workouts and all of his core muscles.

Note: Dr. Andrews said that no matter how many pitches he throws in a week it should be a week before he pitches again. EX. Pitch 40 pitches in one game and then come in a day later and close out another game is a NO GO!!

dawg


Thanx

dawg


i'm no Dr,much less a Dr Andrews. my concern is just that from what we have been through,it seams quick. we went to Dr Andrews as well, after surgery we spent more time with Dr Wilk the rehab guy. they know what they are doing.

the players i know that have had tj are hard throwers, 90+. it is my belief that that is a major cause of the injury. (arms not ready to throw that hard.)among other things of course. so when your saying your son is pitching off the mound and throwing 90 again less than 9 months after the surgery it makes me worry.i'm not qualified to know why i'm worried though. i'm very happy that this is working so well for your son. i'm sorry if i caused you any worry.

i wish you both continued success.

quote:

Originally posted by dawgduck:
TPM & 20dad, Thank you for your responses and concern because I truly believe you both take any kids best interest to heart.It really made me start second guessing everything that we had done and I have lost a couple of days sleep because of it. I wanted to make sure Gary wasn't rushing back so I called Dr. Andrews today. I explained what Gary has already done (pitching with pitch count). He said that he was very happy with Gary and his progress and everything we were doing. He told me to continue with the pitch count up to 75 pitches but no more. He said for him to throw no more than 75 pitches and continue this through out the summer. I have truly been worried about this, because I don't want to sound like the kind of dad that would rush his son back.

Dawgduck,
Didn't mean to alarm you but if you go back and read it seemed like your son was pitching every 3-4 days PLUS playing a position.