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15 or 16 at the earliest. A change up is just as effective, just as easy to learn and 1000% safer to throw. A curve ball is 100% optional for success above high school. A change up is virtually essential after high school. Most good college pitchers throw 2 seam, slider and change.

A real example; Kid at our high school, great curveball at a young age, everyone loves it. Coach makes him a varsity pitcher as a freshman, now starting junior year, has no confidence in his other pitches, even fastball. throws 60% curves to throw strikes, regular arm pain, and hitters have figured out just to wait for the curve and just pound it. I blame the arm pain on the curve which he started at 11, and coaches who fall in love with it. My kid can throw a curve but refused to until this year at 16 years old when his growth plates closed, pro pitchers and coaches he ran into growing up told him not to. Never has had arm pain, but the refusal did cost him starts and varsity time, in the long run we will see who was right.

quote:

Originally posted by Pitcher18:
I'm hoping to open a discussion on an issue that seems to generate as many different opinions as any baseball topic I can think of -- when is the "right" time for pitchers to start throwing curveballs?

I think that waiting until 16 or 17 is best.

Trevor Hoffman never threw one until he was in college, so that excuse for startin early goes out the window.

Also, I don't buy the "he only throws a couple of curveballs in a game" argument because to throw just one curveball in a game, you have to throw a lot more (maybe hundreds) in practice. That can lead to overuse problems, at least.

At 10 or 11, kids should be working on their fastball and their changeup. A great c/u is probably the most devastating pitch in baseball.

Starting to learn the curve at 13 or 14 is plenty early.

On aspect than many do not recognize---at age 10/11 the youth is pitching at the 40 ft distance---get to HS and you are pitching at 60ft 6 inches---he now needs to learn to throw it all over again---this being the case with all of the other aspects involved why not wait until the youth reaches the HS level and the full size diamond

PITCHER18 I think you have a good grip on understanding the CB.
My son who is 20 has thrown a CB for 10-11 years. He was taught by ML players and scouts. Never had an ar4m injury and would fall under the over used catagory. Played on as many as 4 teams in one year and was always throwing 100 + innings.
I break thye CB into 2 types. One I label a LL CB which is a slow breaking CB and has no stress on the arm. The other is a ML CB which has the tomahawk action which can if thrown improperly cause elbow problems.
I also like to differentiate betwenn the body type of a young pitcher. Short ,tall ,stocky average or lanky. I feel the tall lanky pitcher with long fingers,arms etc have less chance of injury than the short lanky guys because of the difference in effort level This is just atheory from observing years of pitching at all level.
You understand that conditioning of the arm properly for throwing a BB is key to arm health. We had a couple checkups evey year by a specialistand my son worked out all year throwing and more throwing plus strength training. The training should be specific to pitching.

I would agree with TRhit, my son started throwing the CB at age 16. He developed a good change as he continues to mature. He is a Junior this year and has not missed any playing time or start time becasue of the decision to wait, from HS team or Summer team.

quote:

he now needs to learn to throw it all over again---this being the case with all of the other aspects involved why not wait until the youth reaches the HS level and the full size diamond

Learning to feel the ball is not distant specific. Finger pressure is the key to throwing a CB. A good pitcher can adjust to thye change in distance within a couple outings.
Doctors don't want you throwing period. The act as many know is unnatural. The LL CB is less stressful than a FB according to my son. He still mixes in a LL CB on a rare occassion.

I do think you make a very valid point in that many kids start throwing curves without proper instruction. It is crucial that when learning the pitch they are taught the proper mechanics and then receive reinforced instruction to maintain those mechanics. Many a kid has learned the curve ball incorrectly and have bad habits that eventually screw up the arm.

I would really stress control of the fast ball and developing an effect change as the main priorities before high school. With proper teaching, start experimenting with the curve perhaps the year before entering high school. But on a watchful and limited basis.

Once learned, too many kids fall in love with the curve as it is very effective especially against inexperienced hitters. Next thing you know they're throwing it over 50% of the time....not a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
15 or 16 at the earliest. A change up is just as effective, just as easy to learn and 1000% safer to throw. A curve ball is 100% optional for success above high school. A change up is virtually essential after high school. Most good college pitchers throw 2 seam, slider and change.

I agree with the above and all else said about the curveball.

Most of the pitchers around here who threw curves don't pitch anymore.
I know that some have an argument out there for teaching it at a young age (correctly) but then as stated the young pitchers relies on it more and more to get outs and is successful, in the end can result in injury and not learning to rely on the bread and butter stuff. Work on the 2 seam FB with your young pitcher for movement and sink, and variations of the change up, it takes a long time to develop but the safest.

JMO from a pitcher's parent that is healthy. In the end, that should be the long term goal.

My question would be: Why in the world does a 10 or 11 year old need an arsenal of 3 pitches?

I was at The Candian National exhibition last summer and I sat to watch kids throw against a radar gun. Some of them with their BB shirts on which I assummed they played organized ball at some level Almost every one of them started throwing with everything they had and everyone came away rubbing their shoulder or forearm. Most hurt around the Rotator Cuff or the Ulnar ligament. Non warmed up and non had a clue about mechanics. I found it interesting where the pain developed and how quickly. Proper development strengthens those areas and helps avoid injury.
AS a 10-14 yo my son used FB, CB,CU and could throw all of them accurately. His FB was average but the CU and CB were dominating. He was taught to snap his index finger and thumb together to develop his CB. You can see him to this day doing that. Finger pr5essure is a important to get the ball to break.

bobblehead


Are you saying that the curve at 40 feet is the same as the curve at 60?

Sorry---I cannot agree


And to say the LL curve is different than what you call a MLB Curve only confuses me

quote:

My question would be: Why in the world does a 10 or 11 year old need an arsenal of 3 pitches?

Thats an easy question to answer.
My son's FB was only average and he wanted to be a great pitcher even at that age. We invesigated, read up on it and talked to experts.
Proper mechanics is the same for a FB as it is for a CB. My son threw the CB naturally from an early age, has never missed an outing due to arm injury caused by CB. He at 17U threw 2 perfect games. 4 complete shutouts in a row. 1 was a 15 strikeout 1 hitter. He was throwing against 19U Elite teams.
His CB is what got him wins and off speeds defined him as a pitcher.
My experience is quite different than TPM's. Young kids throwing FB in our area have had a larger rate of arm injury and cut their careers short.

TR I am saying a pitcher can adjust to the 60'6 as all our pitchers had to do.
Team Ontario held a camp my son went to. He was used to demonstrate prper mechanics and was asked to throw his CB to a catcher standing on the other side of a 4' fence surrounding the bll park. He skipped 4 out of 5 off the top of the fence. This drill was strange but the coach used it to demonstrate contol of the CB. Another college pitching coach had their pitchers throw blind folded. He wanted you to mentally know where you were putting the ball. He threw the CB for strikes.
CBs at an early age are about feel and finger pressure. The mechanics are the same as for a FB. One coach had the pitchers pitch from 2nd base. Control is control.

I've always told my 13 year old he can throw the curve once he starts shaving. Age does not always indicate when to throw the curve ball. I agree with some of the other posts, work with the CU. I like the kunckle ball. Greg Maddux threw mainly FB and OS and he's had pretty good success.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

Most of the pitchers around here who threw curves don't pitch anymore.

TPM,
I would have to agree with that statement, although in my case I would say there's more to the story. Most of the pitchers that threw curves early were the ones without big velocity. As on coach called them, "junkball" pitchers. So from my observation, it wasn't the curve that killed them, it was their lack of all around ability. JMO

My experience suggests that the curve is far less effective against top varsity hitters. THAT is probably why you see it used less by older kids.

My son has a good curve but uses it less often each year.

Bobblehead,
Any young pitcher trying to throw his hardest without good mechanics is not going to remain healthy either.

Bringing up a healthy pitcher is not an easy task. You take a piece here and a piece there and try to make logical sense to it. With some of the info coming out today, throwing CB's early and often isn't logical.

My son never had a dominating CB, most likely because he didn't begin using it until later in HS, while learning the slider, so it became more of a slurve.

Interesting that now he has been taught to throw a slider properly (not that he throws every one properly yet ) and using the CB less.

As a parent, I personally prefer that mine develop his FB properly over time, gain velocity on his FB as he matures, learn how to change speeds effectively, not be afraid to pitch inside (another thing we don't teach much anymore) rather than having success with CB's early.

Does your son use his CB more now than FB or CU and if so, is it successful? You often speak about your sons success when he was younger and I do beleive that young pitchers relying on CB's will be successful against their peers. In college, watchout,most can eat it up.

CP,
Bobblehead's statment supports what you say, the ones who don't have velocity will use CB. That doesn't mean a pitcher will not be successful, but I do beleive eventually it might cause injuries, or setbacks.