Does anyone else think that Fox's new emphasis on pitch speed at the plate is a bunch of hooey?

The RADAR guns sit elevated above field level. Out of the pitcher's hand, the guns get a read on the pitch pretty close to straight on.

At the plate, though, the gun reading is going to have more of a downward angle. If you remember studying vectors in high school physics, you can understand why the readings at the plate might be lower than actual speeds.

Is there no one at Fox who took science in high school?

There's no way a fastball drops 8 mph over a span of 55 feet.

Midlo, this is an interesting point. Without Fox giving some technical explanation of how they are deriving their numbers, it does seem a little over the top that pitches are losing 7-8 mph on their trip to the plate. As for remembering my HS physics, let's just say that I must have been sick the day they taught vectors.

Did somebody say vector? I love "Airplane"

Flight Control: Flight 209 you're clear for takeoff.
Clarence Oveur: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
FC: LA departure frequency 123.9.
Clarence Oveur: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Victor Basta: Request vector, over.
Clarence Oveur: What?
FC: Flight 209 clear for vector 324.
Roger Murdock: We have clearance, Clarence.
Clarence Oveur: Roger, Roger, what's our vector, victor?
FC: Now we're in radio clearance, over.
Clarence Oveur: That's Clarence Oveur, over.
Victor Basta: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
FC: Roger, over.
Clarence Oveur: What?
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Victor Basta: Who?

Actually, if you assumed the pitcher was throwing level (straight ahead instead of downhill already, which he is)...the drop in elevation from the mound to the plate (10 in.) would only account for about 1.24 mph in speed decline.

Since he's already throwing downhill (that is, the vector of the pitch is already pointed down towards the catcher), I think the decline is quite a bit less due to change in elevation from the pitcher's mound to the plate.

I believe 5-8 mph sounds about right due primarily to friction (caused by the ball rushing through the air) and a little bit due to gravity (causing a slight downward vector from the moment the ball leaves the pitcher's hand).

Yup 1 mph for every 5 feet approximately.

I have often wondered about gun readings. I questioned this stuff a few years ago and this is what I was told (and read).

The gun reads the highest velocity, which is out of the hand.

Fox had an article that explained the velocity drop, and it stated that they can accurately determine velocity by video analysis. They can look at video frames separated by a certain time and measure the distance the ball travels between the frames. This is easily converted to MPH. The video is taken from the side (1st or 3rd base) and must have great resolution and frames/second. Not sure if this is still the process they are using, but it was a few years back, and it makes sense.

Blprkfrnks - I doubt thats how they get it. I believe(?) most radar guns have a 'continuous' mode that measures the speed over and over all the way to the plate.

Isn't that kind of like using a sun dial to tell time.

We used to use the Stalker Pro Model that would give both speeds (release and home plate).

5 mph difference would be very good in most cases. Usually we would see 6 to 8 mph difference, some even more. The ball is moving at peak speed out of the hand and it starts losing velocity immediately. Good sinker ball pitchers rely on this lose of velocity, to an extent. In the "old" days of the gun, readings were not taken directly out of the hand. So you would see an 86 and that was the equivilant of a low 90s on the gun (velocity out of hand) that is most often used these days.

This brings up something that has always caused me to think. We have seen outfielders throw 94 from the outfield and the ball seems to lose all its velocity before reaching the target. Another outfielder will throw 92 from the outfield and the ball carries and has a lot of velocity at the target.

I know a lot has to do with the grip, release and rotation of the ball. Therefore it's not possible to grade outfield arms based on velocity alone.

It would be very interesting to know which pitcher has the best late velocity. It's possible it is someone other than the pitcher with the best early velocity.

PG - Thinking about it purely from a physics point-of-view, I would say its entirely due to rotation of the ball (which is a result of the grip and release).

jb,

I'm sure you're correct. Same reason that most pitchers will have higher velocity on their 4-seam fastball.

Here is a link to the article I saw years ago. It states that video analysis is far more accurate than radar guns.

Link

PG; isn't that why the scouts 'read the hop' on a throw from the outfield. When you line up 8-10 outfileders and have them all throw a one-hopper to 3rd the results are very obvious on who really has the better arm.

quote:

It would be very interesting to know which pitcher has the best late velocity. It's possible it is someone other than the pitcher with the best early velocity.

That is a fascinating question that I would love to know the answer to.

They used to use the phrase "rising fastball" that has been debunked somewhat by the analytical analysis that Midlo suggests. Even if it were an optical illusion, some guys seemed to have late explosion on their fastballs that made them appear to "rise" above the hitters swing plane. I think, we often see it in closers. Goose Gossage was one that comes to mind but there are many of them.

For starting pitchers, Jim Palmer seemed to have this type of late explosion at the plate. When he let the ball go it looked effortless but it seemed to gobble the hitters up by the time it got there. Bob Gibson was another one. From what I have read about Bob Feller and observed on old news reels - he also had this ability. Koufax was another. I think there is more to it than just how fast it goes when it leaves someone's hand.

Greg Maddux was another who seemed to have late velocity imho. I don't think most would categorize him as a power pitcher however.

Thanks for the link Blprk...cool stuff!

Most scientific testing is done in a lab which is a controlled environment. They use digital laser technology which is extremely accurate.
Velo is affected by many things including humidity ,air current and even time of day.

Trojan-skipper,

The good one hop throw is a result of having 12-6 rotation on the ball. The same 12-6 rotation allows the baseball to carry farther, too, even without the hop. Very similar to a backspin rotation off the bat will carry farther than a ball hit with top spin.

This bit of knowledge gives me hope for my son who is throwing 79-82, but I believe it is being read close to the plate, not out of his hand. He was clocked at 84-85 a year ago at a PG event (not the underclass when he was hurt) and he has improved since then.

If I add 3-5 MPH for his out of the hand velocity, it all begins to make more sense. Catchers say he is throwing hard and he looks like he is throwing hard, but I have been relying on the radar gun.

quote:

This brings up something that has always caused me to think. We have seen outfielders throw 94 from the outfield and the ball seems to lose all its velocity before reaching the target. Another outfielder will throw 92 from the outfield and the ball carries and has a lot of velocity at the target.

I know a lot has to do with the grip, release and rotation of the ball. Therefore it's not possible to grade outfield arms based on velocity alone.

I have always wondered about this, also. I have seen so many kids throw from the outfield and it just dies at the plate. Other kids throw and it looks effortless and the ball just carries. I swear it was going to one hop the plate. But it always carries. Is there a release or spin that can be taught to outfielders to get them the extra range on their arms?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
We used to use the Stalker Pro Model that would give both speeds (release and home plate).

5 mph difference would be very good in most cases. Usually we would see 6 to 8 mph difference, some even more. The ball is moving at peak speed out of the hand and it starts losing velocity immediately. Good sinker ball pitchers rely on this lose of velocity, to an extent. In the "old" days of the gun, readings were not taken directly out of the hand. So you would see an 86 and that was the equivilant of a low 90s on the gun (velocity out of hand) that is most often used these days.

Is this also why we see so many more pitchers throwing in the 90's and 100's, the radar guns are reading hotter out of the hand?