.

PG..

You and I agree...

I do not see PG as a/the problem. YOu serve a valuable purpose.

The problem is the continued assault on community youth leagues, particularly at the younger levels.. And the ramifacations for the future as the more passionate players and parents are pulled away from community ball as a result of the "Tennsization" process.

Those leagues run solely on HUGE amounts of parental goodwill, passion, donation, and community.

When that goes?

44

I am still tying to figure out what is at stake at "14"?

Parents are louder and more active because their heart is where their money is! You can't expect a blank check with no input from the parents. The way I see it is I am now paying for a service and I expect to get my moneys worth or you will hear about it, just like at McDonalds, you mess up my order and I complain, compare that $5.00 ticket to the thousands spent on tournaments/showcases and you can muliply my input by a factor of a 1000 or so.

As I have mentioned before I am very involved with recreational baseball in my area. I all but beg parents to let their kids play in our programs. They think we don't have the level of talent their kids need. I always tell them if your kid comes then the talent will be there. We offer a great value at $65-75. Not only that our league insurance will cover a travel team made up of players from our league so we even encourage the players to form travel teams and play any and all competition. If a kid is registered at our park we let their travel team use our fields for practice and or games at no additional charge. Still no takers. For some strange reason most parents think if it cost more money it must be better. What they don't realize is that is exactly what everybody else is doing and the teams in travel ball are just high priced rec teams. Now don't get me wrong the top tier travel teams are great and loaded with top talent. The other ten thousand where most of the kids play are what I am talking about.

The real drivers are the organizations and coaches that have the parents and players beliving the only way to play in college is through the showcase/tournament route. Which I also believe is the case.The coaches say they can see more and better talent at the showcases, using less time and money, then complain that the talent is lower because only the wealthy show-up. They need more minorities in baseball but the minorities can't afford the travel/showcase circuit. It is one of those self-perpetuating problems and nobody has the courage to stop the train and get off.

A close to home example is the high school feed by one of our bigger parks took almost all of the park all-star team for their freshman class 4 seasons ago. The next season they took players from a travel team run by a big booster. The next season that travel team merged with a travel team coached by one of the hs assistants and they took 4 8th graders over some pretty good freshmen. (This high school has 2000 kids). Now all the 13 y/os (7/8th graders)think you have to be on that special team (read as pay big money) or you will not make the school team. So when the coaches complain the talent is down and the parents complain too much, I tell them it is your own fault, and get out my checkbook and hit the showcase/tournament trail.

I have watched this thread closely for the past day as it is of great interest to me (sorry for the length of this post).

To the basic question asked, "Are parents too involved?" I say the answer is YES! No, not everyone, not all the time, not everywhere...but YES...WE are too involved. (notice the "WE" in that sentence...I fear that I am guilty too).

I DID spend too much money, I DID take too much time off work, I DID travel too often leaving my other kids and/or wife at home and I DID, at least a few times, make my son feel as if his whole life depended on baseball. Sound familiar to any of you?

What are some of the bigger symptoms? For one, I see all of the behavior that infielddad describes when I go to 12/13/14-year old baseball games. Much of this behavior is new and accentuated for this age group. I get emails or phone calls or questions from parents of 10/11/12-year olds about 'how to prepare their youngster for college baseball?' I see the (historically) very best HS-age summer programs now reaching down to 11/12-year olds (whatever happened to hometown community baseball Observer44? ) and I hear parents' disappointment when their 13-year old son isn't invited onto that super-duper elite team (I can tell you, for sure, that our now 6'-3" 19-year old son would not have made these teams at age 13, 5'-2"). And now I see showcases for 13/14-year olds and worse-yet parents paying to send them there. WHY?

I also see parents getting HS coaches fired at an alarming rate (will there be any HS coaches left in 10 years? in 5 years?). I hear parents asking me if their son should even play HS baseball but instead just do the 'travel thing' (will there be HS baseball in 10 years? in 5 years?). In our area, I see we have a severe shortage of HS umpires because of the abuse they take from us parents...and virtually no young ones entering the ranks. I read parents posting on their son's college's message board about how lousy the coach is and I hear about college parents calling their son's college coach about Johnny's (lack of) playing time.

Cheering at a showcase is NOT something I saw much of 3 years ago...and its not a crime for sure...but it IS an indicator of the over-importance the parents place on that one event.

Come on, lets admit it...our parents would have NEVER done these things I have listed...not where I grew up. And we turned out ok, didn't we?

Look, we are parents...we are GOOD parents. Our sons and daughters are lucky to have us for sure. We ALL want to do the very best for our sons and daughters. I do and have too. I don't think I'm a bad person or you are a bad person or the people running 12-year old elite teams and showcases are bad people (they wouldn't be there if there wasn't a 'market' for it!). Some are the very best people I know.

But are we too involved? Yes, I think so. And I think at times we telegraph to our kids that unless they make that elite travel team and go 3-4 and/or pitch a 2-hitter that they have failed US. Do we get as excited (or disappointed) when they bring home straight A's (or 3 C's) in HS? Did you really? Yes, I am guilty of not always focusing on the most important things too...I try to curb it and I'm not always successful. But lets think about what we really wanted for our sons and daughters when they were in the crib. College education? A good spouse? A few children? Nice home/good job? A good citizen? Thats what we wanted. A good baseball player was a bonus...icing on the cake...not a requirement. Do I always remember that? No.

I'm sure some (maybe many?) of you will disagree with at least part of what I have said. Thats good because I've only met one or two parents who fit all of that above and surely none of us are all of that. I wrote much of this mostly to give us something to think about. But as my injured son returned home last night...I wasn't thinking about baseball at all. I was thinking about how much I love him, about how happy I am that he's alive (you should see the bloody uniform!), about the things we're going to do together to fill up the rest of the summer. Lets be involved, but lets keep it grounded and lets keep it fun.

justbaseball---

[I believe that this trend has MAJOR negative implications for the future broad term viability of baseball in the US.]


Baseball aside, what about societal and cultural outfall from children who are pushed hard and early to compete? Some kids take to it just fine and learn how to handle competition. How to "grow" with the competitive nature of sports and life. Some don't do so well and will always look over their shoulder to see if their parents (read: wife/girlfriend/husband/etc.) think they are doing okay. This kids will always need confirmation because the competitive nature of the world requires a person to have a high degree of self-confidence. You don't get self-confidence when mom or dad are continually negotiating, diluting, negating, manuevring, manipulating, translating and so forth because you never gain the tools that mom and dad think are essential for competition: negotiating, diluting, negating, manuevring, manipulating, translating and so forth!!!!

Learning to be independent and self-assured is so tricky. In the past, there was a lot more freedom (because it was safer) for kids to develop this. I speak from those of us in heavily populated urban cultures where our kids were never allowed to play in front of the house with out an adult; never went down to the park alone; were basically never "alone" in the world until they were 14 or 15. As a result, I probably HAD to do a lot more negotiating, etc. for my kid because he didn't have alot of those worldly skills early on. He's learning them now. But I know he's a few steps behind some of the farm boys, etc. who had the space and freedom to grow up naturally.
So overinvolved parents are a problem, I agree. But some of us had to do it to keep our kids safe, in some respects.

quote:

But lets think about what we really wanted for our sons and daughters when they were in the crib. College education? A good spouse? A few children? Nice home/good job? A good citizen? Thats what we wanted. A good baseball player was a bonus...icing on the cake...not a requirement.

Amen and no one is more surprised than me with that bonus.

Folks

If they come out of the womb healhty nowadays that is a MAJOR BONUS ---- be thankful for that--after that is it all a bonus

Justbaseball, great post.

JBB,
Great post.

As I told JBB, the day I found out about his son, it was a few hours before our last and final game in Omaha. During the entire game I kept thinking of Erik, JBB and family,as my husband unfortunetly had the same type of injury many years ago, while at a ML spring training game. I don't know Erik personally but have been following him for a few years and I sort of lived through much pain and agony for many months after husband was hurt. I have to admit, I felt quite uncomfortable trying to enjoy myself when I had an idea of what he was going through, as well as his parents.

As I look back on that day, I know that I would worry all over again, because I realized then that as long as son is healthy and happy, nothing else REALLY matters. It sort of put lots of things in perspective.

quote:

Cheering at a showcase is NOT something I saw much of 3 years ago...and its not a crime for sure...but it IS an indicator of the over-importance the parents place on that one event. Come on, lets admit it...our parents would have NEVER done these things I have listed...not where I grew up

.
I'm with Justbaseball 100% on this. But there is a very extreme parallel out there that I am very familiar with and that's youth hockey. The good thing is baseball will never carry the rep that hockey parents have. If you go to an elite youth hockey, 8-15 year old game, you will see the ugliest parent situations in your life. Now go to a 16-18 yr old elite game and 80% of those rabbid parents are gone or now quiet. Why are they gone/quiet? I feel that they have either burned their kids out, the kids/parents found out they were not that good, the parents have grown up themselves and realize that it is not the #1 thing in life, or the rules of their probation said they had to behave . Bottom line is you cannot control parental attitude, it is blind.

Back in the 60's and 70's my parents would never have carried on like that, but at that time there was not as much at stake in order to move to the next level and there was not the personal economic impact. These are issues brought on by the elite programs and the dreams of the parents of the young kids to be part of those programs.

Hockey was one of the first youth sports that had "elite" programs and it has filtered into baseball. I think it's great, it gave my son opportunities that he never would have had, I had a blast, and met some great people. As with the evolution of anything, there are negatives that go with it. The important thing is to follow your own believes, and ignore the attitudes that you can't change.

perhaps the parents burned themselves out?

I know the hockey folk

I have read this whole topic with much interest. I can only hope that I am not one of those obnoxious parents. I do remember yelling "that was my son" during a PG event when I realized that my usual catcher was playing 3rd and had made a great play to first. I also know that the financial aspect of baseball is more and more.

Until just a year or so ago, (my son will be a senior this year) we had never even heard about showcases. The varsity players parents mentioned it when my son was brought up for a game or two. No freshman parent and most of the JV parents had no idea what they were talking about. Then we find out that almost "have" to attend a showcase or two to get noticed by anyone. I do attend all of my son's games, tournaments and showcases (going to third one ever this month). I love to watch him play, I love to watch baseball at any level, and I love to support him.

Whether he makes it to the next level or not, I will be proud of him. If he is happy - I will be happy. I know that he loves the game. I do push when I know he is not doing what he is capable of. I enjoy the drives as it gives us time to talk and share each others lives - not just baseball.

If I am too involved - so be it. Sometimes our involvement is what keeps them from getting involved in other stuff.

Just a mom's point of view.

quote:

perhaps the parents burned themselves out?

Good point TR. I know our LL has used the hockey parent flaws as a reminder in an effort to control potential situations. We realize that you can't eliminate the attitude you can only hope to contain it. As a result we do not keep league standings, our All-Star coaches are recruited away from the program, fan rules are posted, and at all times there is a board member at the field to supervise the fans. Our LL is 600+ kids strong and every year the number of parent "incidents" goes down. We hope this attitude is ingrained into the mindset of parents as the kids get older.

justbb, because of the breadth of your experience, from the AFLAC and team USA with Erik to your involvement/attachment with your local Pony league, I have to say, your post ROCKS!!!
That is truly a keeper.

It is very hard to strike the appropriate balance when supporting and encouraging your son's baseball development.

I try always to be cognizant of helping my son develop personal interests and identities outside of baseball. I don't want him to think of himself as only a baseball player.

That said, I confess that I spend more time and money on baseball than on any of his other interests. I'm not sure that is a bad thing, but I am sure that I want my son to grow up to be much more than a baseball player, even if he is fortunate enough to realize his dream of playing in the big leagues.

For me, my son's transition to high school was an important benchmark. For the first time his development as a player was largely out of my hands. For the first time I have zero input as to how he practices with his team, where and how much he plays, where he bats in the order, what batting mechanics he uses, etc.

I think it is important for both the parent and the player for the parent to be able to let go and be a spectator.

As my son has transitioned into high school and made the jump from youth ball immediately to varsity, he has struggled more than he is used to. This has given both of us a terrific opportunity to gain perspective.

He's had more failure this year than in years past. As he struggles through it, part of me is happy that I get the opportunity to just quietly support him, prove to him that going 0 for 3 doesn't matter, and let him adjust to the higher level of play by working with his coaches and teammates, without much input from me.

No matter where any of us fall on the spectrum of "over-involvement," it is a dead certain fact that at some point our involvement in the direction of our son's baseball career is negligible.

Which means for any of us, our real job as parents involved in our son's baseball is to work ourselves out of a job. If more parents realized this, we might have less "daddy ball" and fewer high maintenance parents.

Justbaseball -- maybe the best post I have seen on this board.

I have a 19 year old son playing D-1 college football. I have another 17 year old son getting recruiting phone calls from college baseball coaches. He should get the opportunity to play college baseball somewhere. He currently plays on a very elite level summer baseball team in the Dallas area. He did not begin playing elite level baseball until the summer before his sophomore year in high school. It did not seem to hurt him one bit as he is getting phone calls and notice from several Big 12 and D-1 schools.

Since he has not spent his whole life playing baseball he likes to hunt, fish, camp out, and wake board. I think he would tell you that he has a well rounded life AND he is also one heck of a baseball player.

I've got an 8 year old lefty that I am going to raise the same way. He is playing local rec ball and will play local fall ball until he gets to be 14-15 years old. At that time we will make the decision based on his talent and interest whether we want to make the investment of time and money to try to make it at the "elite" youth team level.

There are actually 8 year old "World Series" - I kid you not about this. There are travel teams made up of 8 year old boys going all over the country playing tournament baseball. There is NO WAY these 8 year old kids came up with the idea of having a "World Series" of coach pitch or machine pitch baseball teams. This is an insane idea hatched by crazy adults and parents whose lives must be pretty boring who are trying to live vicariously through their little boys.

Ok, well now that everyone has done the whole self-flagellation thing, maybe it’s time to step back and realize that it really has little to do with baseball, and more to do with society in general. The sense of entitlement can be seen just driving home from work, rabid drivers who own the road, the casual litter along the road because someone just didn’t want that Styrofoam coffee cup in their car.

What about school? You think baseball is pressure-filled? Try being a kid who brings home a C or below to their dressed-for-success parents. Their kid is going to Harvard, he’s tops in his class you know. This isn’t new. I knew kids back when I was in school who were scared to death over their SAT results and the hell to pay once dad found out. The difference nowadays is that dad would probably go marching into the school to blame somebody else for the situation. Same pressure, different victim.


Hockey? Yeah, those parents are nuts. At least the ones you hear about. I’ll give you that.


I don’t see the tennis analogy though. I grew up in the 70s and nobody played tennis. Nobody. Tennis was for dorks. The only use the school tennis courts got was from middle-age parent-types.

Town organized youth baseball is its own worst enemy by virtue of it being lousy baseball and all-inclusive. Yippee – everyone gets to play with minimal instruction! That’s a recipe for driving any talent away.


Bottom line is, I’m not a noisy parent at games and events. I love watching my son play. Period. Success or failure (What IS failure?). I loved coaching him. I understand, and experience it weekly, that there are parents who yell, whine, cheer, complain, carry on obnoxiously, watch intently, say stupid things, get lovingly choked up, and some are downright boorish. That’s life. You have all kinds. I can get all that at work too. And there ain’t much gonna change people, and I’m certainly not wasting any time trying to.

So, stop beating yourselves up over it. Go enjoy the games and events, and be happy. And if you can’t be happy, or if you’re gonna go point an accusatory finger in TR’s chest, or scream like a lunatic during a showcase, then no amount of discussion on an internet bulletin board is going to change that. And there will always be someone to pick up your trash from the stands and the parking lot after you’re gone.

I hope everyone has a good baseball weekend!

In a constant barrage of info and bad news from the media, many of us now feel we must not only be involved in our children, but we must Control their destiny. The worst for many is when they grow old enough to tell us that they don't want, what We want.
JustBaseball,

quote:

Originally posted by crawdad:
Justbaseball -- maybe the best post I have seen on this board.

I have a 19 year old son playing D-1 college football. I have another 17 year old son getting recruiting phone calls from college baseball coaches. He should get the opportunity to play college baseball somewhere. He currently plays on a very elite level summer baseball team in the Dallas area. He did not begin playing elite level baseball until the summer before his sophomore year in high school. It did not seem to hurt him one bit as he is getting phone calls and notice from several Big 12 and D-1 schools.

Since he has not spent his whole life playing baseball he likes to hunt, fish, camp out, and wake board. I think he would tell you that he has a well rounded life AND he is also one heck of a baseball player.

I've got an 8 year old lefty that I am going to raise the same way. He is playing local rec ball and will play local fall ball until he gets to be 14-15 years old. At that time we will make the decision based on his talent and interest whether we want to make the investment of time and money to try to make it at the "elite" youth team level.

There are actually 8 year old "World Series" - I kid you not about this. There are travel teams made up of 8 year old boys going all over the country playing tournament baseball. There is NO WAY these 8 year old kids came up with the idea of having a "World Series" of coach pitch or machine pitch baseball teams. This is an insane idea hatched by crazy adults and parents whose lives must be pretty boring who are trying to live vicariously through their little boys.

crawdad............You have the best post on this thread... ...I did it the same way, and I also have an 8 year old with baseball passion, and we will do it the same way.

Too many people think that if their kid misses a "National Event