I have been going to the Stanford Camp for a number of years to see and talk to several coaches with whom I have become friends. Went again on Tuesday.
What struck me as unusual was the amount of cheering combined with some "groans" from the stands. Asked a couple of the coaches if they remembered it from the past and the answer was a resounding no. Was new to them too.
Also exchanged a number of emails with a friend about observations a very good local high school coach made at a tournment over the weekend. The coach observed a very intense tournament for 14 year olds. Many parents stood behind the backstop and barked constantly at the umpire the opposing pitcher and and hitter. Not encouragement of players on their team but rather trying to get in the head of the opposition...and sometimes, apparently, even worse.
Just from the surface, it seems clear that the Stanford Camp is a high visibility/high expectations type experience for anyone invited. The 14's tournament seemed like the same but, perhaps, less stakes(although you couldn't tell by the parents) and much younger.
Needless to say, we would all love to see our son have great success when they are on the field. So many of them did in little league. When they get to the regulation diamond, the field dimensions, as history proves, shows how hard the game is to play.
Even though the game is harder as players progress upward,do we as parents adjust our expectations?
Or, as the game gets harder and visions of DI/scholarships and the like get closer, do we actually increase the expectations on their performance...and become more vocal with the cheers/groans and other?
When your son is playing baseball, do you watch him as a fan of the game and the skills necessary to play it, or do you watch as a parent trying to shield him from "failing," hoping he looks good, and looking around to see if the Ivy league coach is watching him and taking notes. Is one better than the other? If we are more than a fan of the way they play the game and the skills they show on the field, are we "too involved?"
I pose these questions from the view of our son. The year he went to the Stanford Camp(a very long time and way too many gray hairs ago ) , he was adamant we not attend. We discussed it at some length. He finally acknowledged that he knew what was at stake in the camp, that he wanted/needed to perform at this best. While he said we never put pressure on him, and in fact almost never say anything at a game, just having parents there increases the pressure. When we said other parents would be there, his response was that he viewed them as fans he knew didn't care how he performed. "When your own parents are there, you want to be successful because they are your parents." Are parents too involved? On that occasion, our's told us we were.

eeek..good post.

I see that you're in California. So you know that the high caliber players, at least in Northern California, are so visibile and so noteworthy..that the "others" almost pale in comparison. Is it any wonder that parents, around here at any rate (I can't speak for other regions) worry and fret about their sons simplying PLAYING college ball? On this website, I hardly ever see postings about California players getting signed. Look in the California forum as compared to other states. We're just hoping our son gets a nod from a college. Scholarship money? Who knows? There was only one player on my son's team in the last 10 years who actually got scholarship money much less played at the next level. The odds are not too good from our program unless a parent jumps in a manages stuff. And, yes, we watch to see if what WE see is what the RECRUITERS are seeing. So, yes, we watch obsessively because you cannot look away when it is your child, exposed for all his foibles, weaknesses, strengths, characters for an opportunity to do something that he has worked for since tee-ball. I doubt there are many parents with sons at this level who worry about "protecting" them. After all, we are helping them get "exposed" and this invites criticism as well as compliments.

I was at a few of the Stanford Camp games this past week. I was astounded at how many people were at the games! Cheers, sure. But plenty of comments from the peanut gallery that made me feel embarassed to be a parent there.

Infieldad - You're just on a roll lately! Great question!!!

I believe I can say "No, I was never too involved". I realize though that's my perception. I'll have to remember to ask my son later.

Perhaps we were freaks in the baseball world. My son and I NEVER thought about a baseball scholarship. He always assumed he'd play baseball in college. We never thought about exposure in baseball. He never attended high profile showcases - as a matter of fact that stuff usually went into the trash when I looked at the costs.

He just played baseball because he loved it. I just went and watched him because I loved it. It was just him and what he did! He played baseball.

I can remember a dad when my son went to visit a JUCO and spent the day on the field with the team. There was this kid there pitching and working out with them for an hour or two. That dad walked up and down the fenceline, around the building, etc. following his son as he "tried out". I sat in the stands laughing (I think to myself!) at this guy!

This past weekend I observed a dad with his book in hand discussing with his pitcher son what he had done right, wrong, needed to focus on in the next few weeks, where he stood against other pitchers in the league....... Again, I sat there laughing!

Baseball has never been a business for either one of us! Like they say, ignorance is bliss I suppose!

.

Good disucssion and a VERY topical question...

While we all want the best for our sons and there are many many more excellent people in baseball than problem parents...

IMO the nature of the process has changed in the last 5 years and the trend is clear...Baseball is headed the way of Tennis and Golf. The future of youth baseball is beginning to look more and more like and investment of tens of thousands of dollars, and years of full-time micromanaging juniors career by the parents. Is it any wonder that the parents are anxious?

Does this excuse the parental behavior? No. But it does mean that as this thing increasingly becomes a parent driven project as much as a child driven one, it becomes harder and harder for most parents not to get overinvolved.

44

Well said 44.

infielddad,

CAMP? CAMP? Are we talkin' about practice? Are we really talkin' about practice?

Interesting observations. We went to a couple of school camps and a couple of showcases. I remembered them much as you did. Some parents scattered around the stands lounging, reading, socializing, etc. I recall no cheering barking etc. I can't emotionally invest in a CAMP. At my age I prefer to save my energy for other activities.

Dad04, one of the coaches called and said he had just spent the morning watching a run of righty's throwing 76.
Grabbed my glove (found the leather was cracked from non-use) and went roaring to the camp.
Thought for sure I could match up at 76 and still had 3 years of eligibility.
Just started to loosen up. Found out they wanted several hundred of my hard earned dollars.
Also found out with one throw that leather in the glove wasn't the only thing that had cracked from non-use.
Sulked into the stands, my hopes and dreams dashed. Put on the sun glasses and enjoyed great conversation with some coaches while having fun watching a lots of baseball on the Sunken Diamond...a beautiful place to spend any day.

________________________________________________
"IMO the nature of the process has changed in the last 5 years and the trend is clear...Baseball is headed the way of Tennis and Golf. The future of youth baseball is beginning to look more and more like and investment of tens of thousands of dollars, and years of full-time micromanaging juniors career by the parents. Is it any wonder that the parents are anxious? "
________________________________________________


O44, I am concerned you are right. The sense of investing money, sometimes a lot of money, creates "entitlement." The combination of money invested and "entitlement" sometimes leads to very poor results in the way people act and the decisions that get made.
I was watching Field of Dreams last night and couldn't help but see the contrast in the trend you describe and the following lines:

"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again."

All that was good...and could be again. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Righties in the 70's? Please ask about crafty lefties in the 50's nearing 50? I'm going to long toss tonight. I haven't thrown BP in 8 years but I've heard its like riding a bike. Well, I fell off my bike and broke a collar bone 10 years ago, but on my glove side.

Having been a coach I have seen a dramatic change in the atmosphere. 30 years ago parents came to the game watched and went home. Now some of them practically sit on the bench

Parents are just like ball players. There are many different types of both. Some know how to act and some don't! We've met a lot of great parents and a few bad apples!

.
Ok...now you've REALLY gone and done it...encouraged me...

"Get on that Soapbox 44!"....

...I'll take this discussion of overinvolved parents and "Tennisization" of baseball a step farther...

I believe that this trend has MAJOR negative implications for the future broad term viability of baseball in the US.

The Bad News?...Let's take a look at the youth tennis model.

American Junior tennis has evolved from a 70's boom when ALL kids played, into a tiny, parent driven, big money, selfish activity. The participation is small, expensive, regional (as opposed to local), private lesson driven, and it has strangled the life out of the kids and the sport. As a result tennis is paying the price, big time. This year's Wimbledon with NO Amercians is a case in point.As a result Tennis players are constantly complaining about the lack of american players.

I have told them that you want to fix it? IT's VERY simple. Look at the success of youth baseball, that's the model you should follow. It's inexpensive, it's accessable, it's local, it's fun for kids and parents and as a result it's simply a cultural institution. At the moment 80% of the kids in every community play. That's tremendous. Not only does it offer the numbers game but it produces lifetime fans and a cultural chain from generation to generation.

I see this cultural chain in jeopardy. I fear that by the time we in baseball recognizes the problem it will be too late.

The solution? Yep, spent the money. Take baseball regional and national. Offer private lessons for development. Travel like crazy. We did it and I am all for it. The increased competition is so important on many levels. BUT we must also find a way to protect, preserve, value and celebrate the hometown youth ball that is the foundation for all of it.

The good news?...based on the lack of respone I have had...I am COMPLETELY alone in this viewpoint...a voice in the wilderness ...er, I mean,...outfield.

And as no one agrees, then....I must be wrong...

but I doubt it...

And being the overinvolved parent I have been...I guess I don't have to worry about it, as long as my two got through successfully and are now playing college ball...who cares.

44

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Parents are just like ball players. There are many different types of both. Some know how to act and some don't! We've met a lot of great parents and a few bad apples!

I'll have to take PG's word on this as he deals with more parents on a regular basis that we do.

Infielddad asked a question, but I get the feeling he my have had more negatives in mind on the subject than I did as I read his post.

I was and still am an involved parent in my children's lives, not just baseball. I follow every game son plays, in person, on TV and or the internet, was highly involved as a booster parent in HS and highly involved in choosing what teams to play on and what events to participate in and his recruiting process and draft process in HS. I also was invloved as far as watching out for his arm health, and we spoke up when we felt a need to.

As a parent I watch the game as a fan, as a parent I do hope son does not fail, on the field or off, as a parent I am interested to know who was watching and who is now. I think that is normal.

As a parent, in HS, I traveled ONCE out of FL to watch him play in the many out of state tournaments and games he participated in. We dropped him off at camps, but that was what we did, I don't see if someone chooses to do so that it makes them too involved. As son grows older and I realize he may not play forever, I often wish we had spent more time watching those things in person, rather than hearing about them.

JMO

I would have to agree that parents are practically forced to be involved these days because everyone is looking out for their own son or their own job (coaches). And with the cost of sending your kids to camps or to play on summer teams you have to make sure you are getting your moneys worth. There are good ways to be involved though and bad ways. Parents who talk to their kids while they are on the field or around the field should think about what it is doing to the kid. My son won't let us do that and won't let us talk to a coach unless he has had several conversations with the coach and doesn't feel like he's being heard, and even then it would have to be a major issue. We counsel our son before and after games at home and we do a lot of leg work for him with getting him to the right events and on the right teams to get him seen. So far it's worked out pretty well and we don't have too many other parents or coaches that can't stand to see us walk into the stadium.

I sorta miss:

The international sign for "I'm thirsty", the throwing hand shaped like a "C" to the mouth.

Seeing 20 ladies turn around when a kid yells "Hey Ma!"

quote:

BUT we must also find a way to protect, preserve, value and celebrate the hometown youth ball that is the foundation for all of it.

O44,

Some could think we are part of the problem (if there is one) I, for one, agree with your thoughts above, completely. The most important baseball is played by young kids at very little cost. We need to keep it that way!

Being involved in a healthy way means writing the checks for what your family can afford, attending games, cheering, driving them where they need to be, there to listen to concerns they have, perhaps steering them down certain roads..... IMO.

It does not mean some of the craziness that we've all witnessed from time to time. The parents that appear to be trying to live through son's accomplishments or what the parent wants the son's accomplishments to be.

As a parent I sat in section RZ which was reserved for parents that spit seeds, drank cokes, did not scream for "Billy", and did not bring up the 30% off sale at Boston Stores. I was also the usher/bouncer with 0 tolerence. My better half sat with the masses where there was always a scream, a cackle, and never a moment of silence. They were also enjoying the game. At times I thought they were out of line. Now when I sit back and look at it and think who am I to say how they show their emotion, they are proud parents. I think it comes down to 2 issues......

1. Camps and showcases have minimal "stage" time. If you pitch, you might only see an inning, if you hit there may be 2 or 3 AB's. From a parents standpoint, many get excited about the times you are on stage. Who are we to judge? These are time consuming events that are not cheap and regardless of what little Billy thinks, he's probably the one who planted the "excitment seed" to begin with.

2. Look to see what parents are being the loudest and most enthusiastic. My money says it is the parents of kids that do not go to many events and/or are parents of "marginal" showcase players. I think you see more noise because the events have been opened to a bigger audience. If you have the entry fee you can participate. I have no problem with giving anybody who wants the opportunity, but, those who do not want the the noise are going to have to sit back and bite their lip because everyone paid the same price to get in. On one hand the baseball gods want to have more people involved, on the other hand they expect everyone to act the same. Sorry, not going to happen.

Most of us have kids that do not want us around at all for these things. Little Billy does not understand the parental instinct and right that allows us to watch our kids grow up. It's like a lion who teaches her young to hunt then watches a good kill and disappears into the brush. Your not going to stop it.

I can remember going to the TeamOne Showcase at ND in 2002 where they had some great games going on but you could hear a pin drop in the stands full of people. Except for my wife and a couple other moms who snuck their hairdryers into the park and sat a couple rows behind the scouts and gunned pitches , it was kind of boring. However, if there would have been player and fan excitement, they would have gone down as the most exciting HS games I'd ever seen.

Anyone is still welcome with the ol' faarts in section RZ as long as they follow the rules.

Great topic Infielddad. I think you hit upon a factor influencing certain negative characteristics of "involvement" when you spoke of "entitlement". I remember attending my first showcase event with my son over a year ago {it seems like a century}. I saw nervous parents [primarily fathers] pacing around, following every move of their sons on the field and at bat, seeming to live and die with each mini-failure or success. Yelling things like "great play Johnny" or "shake it off kid, you will get them next time" as if their child or his evaluators needed a reminder that #8 made a good play or struck out on a curve ball in the dirt.

At the time I thought to myself, I will never be like that. And I don't believe that I have been. But it has taken some effort on my part to keep reminding myself that it is his dream, his opportunity and his talent; not mine.

But there is a need for parental involvement in at least one part of his "search" for "a college where I can play baseball." The parent must help in researching the colleges of interest on the academic side. Does it have a major he is interested in? Will it be too tough academically for him? Will it not be tough enough academically? Is it too religous or not religous enough? Is there a social life on campus or must it be found off campus?

The parent should also be involved in the "search" for the right baseball program. What is the head coach like? How long have the assistants been there? What is the background of the Assistant Coach that will be mostly involved with my son? What are the facilities like? Are the outdoor field demensions and accoutrements favorable to my son's talents or unfavorable? What are the indoor facilities like? Do they have a full size weight room or is it tucked away somewhere in the corner of a basement? And we could go on and on. The parents must assist in finding out the true answers to these and many other questions before a decision is reached and the NLI is signed.

So perhaps instead of attending that 5th showcase this year and going through the thrill of victory/agony of defeat showcase internal conflict we all seem to go through you might spend the weekend on the internet doing a lot of research on those "dream colleges". That kind of parental involvement can only help your son and it won't embarass you in the least.

TW344

We have a policy at our events and it is explained in our pre showcase seminar

Parents dont talk(complain) to the coaches--they sit in the stands and cheer , take videos etal

Parents if you have a complaint come see the Main Man" in the press box-- if you go at the coaches for anything they will not talk to you--they have instructions to adhere to-- they will send you to press box--and the "MAIN MAN" may just ask you to stay at the hotel the next time your kid takes the field

You know it works--- we are always open for a gentlemanly discussion aside from all others-and most will do it that way

Parents should be t there to enjoy their sons ability and see the ability of others in a great format---

To show how extreme it can get---a few years back we had a typical Northeast Thunderstorm hit us at 5 in the afternoon and a parent comes to me, p[oking his finger in my s chest, and asks " So what are you going to do about this?"--I gave him a quarter and told him "Call THE MAN upstairs and see if you have more luck than I have had"

And another year is here !!! I wonder what awaits us this year LOL


All kidding aside 99.9% of the parents are great and what makes it all worthwhile