Opinion question here, so throw out whatever you got.

I've had many conversations over the years about the overall talent in baseball. Most of these have been with my neighbor, who says that baseball players were more talented in years past. His argument is "ERAs were lower, ballparks were bigger, batting averages were higher" (although these stats contradict each other, they are true). I can't really amass an opinion being that I was born in 1990 and didn't watch baseball prior to that.

I'd like to hear some opinions on this from others. For example, take a look at this:

Albert Pujols' average season: .334 BA, 42 HR, 129 RBI.

Ted Williams' average season: .344 BA, 37 HR, 130 Rbi

Albert Pujols' best numbers: .359 BA (2003), 47 HR (2009), 137 RBI (2006)

Ted Williams' best numbers: .406 BA (1941), 43 HR (1949), 159 RBI (1949)

Ichiro's average season: .333 BA, 231 hits, 39 SB

Ty Cobb's average season: .366 BA, 224 hits, 48 SB

Ichiro's best numbers: .372 BA (2004), 262 hits (2004), 56 SB (2001)

Ty Cobb's best numbers: .420 BA (1911), 248 hits (1911), 96 SB (1915)


These are just two examples of comparisons, and the Cobb/Ichiro one probably isn't the best to do because they are a century apart. However, I know baseball goes far beyond the numbers. So I'd like to hear some opinions. Mantle/Rodriguez, Koufax/Maddux, DiMaggio/Griffey, Gibson/Clemens. Just a few more examples.

I'm not necessarily looking for specific players. I just want to see some opinions to see what people believe about the talent in baseball from generation to generation over time.

"Man, this is baseball, you gotta stop thinking! Just have fun." ~The Sandlot

Good post JH, I hope you get lots of answers.

I am not sure how one can compare old vs. new, the game is different, the players are different, the balls and bats are different, the mound height is different. Seems to me it's tougher to play the game these days, though some might disagree.

It is my opinion that baseball players, football players, basketball players, sprinters, stock car drivers, etc. are "overall" better today than they were years ago. Athletes are bigger, stronger, throw harder, run faster, better trained, have additional technology, better athletes, better equipment, etc.

That said, the very best could have come from any generation. No way to compare the statistics. You'd have to see how Ichero would hit against the pitching Ty Cobb hit against. Or see Ty Cobb hit against todays pitchers.

However,still think the best baseball player I have ever seen play is Willie Mays.

It does make for an interesting discussion, though.

I agree with PG regarding Willie Mays and I had the good fortune of seeing him in action his entire career

As the best pitchers I take Gibson and Seaver--Warren Spahn and Sandy Koufax were not too shabby either but I will stick with Gibson and Seaver

PGStaff-

Another thing I was curious about was more of the statistical details that are so involved and public in scouting today from years past. For example, how hard did Sandy Koufax really throw? Or what was Willie Mays's 60 yard dash time? Even players of today, I'd be curious to hear some of these figures. I know they are very difficult to find and for the past players probably impossible. Still, would be cool to see.

Baseball players are better today than they were in the past. Just plain bigger, stronger and faster. Starting around the the 1950's the best players in the country played baseball. More recently many of our best athletes are playing football and basketball instead but we've also gained great players from outside our country.

JH

The 60 yd dash time would have been useless in evlauating willie Mays---he played the game on pure instinct

JH,

We actually have a lot of that information on players who were in high school in the past 15 years. Maybe we will compile all of that someday.

One other thing... Players that played before the late 40s, didn't compete against a very large group of many of the most talented baseball players in the world. Jackie Robinson was late 40s, but it was the 50s before things really changed.

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quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
We actually have a lot of that information on players who were in high school in the past 15 years. Maybe we will compile all of that someday.

Just say when PG...we're ready to get started!






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I saw a documentary recently about sabermetrics and the new statistics of baseball like weighted on base averave (wOBA) and OPS. Bill James said and I believe him, that you cannot just compare numbers to compare players. For example, during the dead ball era, a .290 average may have been like a .360 average today. He said each era needs to be statistically calibrated in order to compare numbers. His top all time team btw based on stats:

1b Lou Gehrig
2b Joe Morgan
SS Honus Wagner
3b Mike Schmidt
LF Ted Williams
CF Willie Mays
RF Babe Ruth
C Johnny Bench

Hard to argue with most of those.

Good list CD. I've seen 4 of the 8 live...all memorable in every way.

CD- Did he rank pitchers?

ClevelandDad, I'm a Bill James and Sabermetrics guy also. But, I've got a real issue with him choosing Joe Morgan over Rogers Hornsby at 2nd base. It's really not even close. Morgan's career BA was .271 with 2517 hits. Hornsby hit .358 and had 2930 hits! He had 7 batting titles and hit over .400 3 times. JMO.

I will not begrudge anyone for picking Bob Gibson.
However, for 4-5 years, my pick is Koufax.
Just this morning, his game 7 in 1965 was discussed.
On two days rest, he beats the Twins, a very good hitting team. Throws a 2 hitter using 90% fastballs.
Harmon Killebrew, a HOF'er, is quoted as saying it was THE very best game he has has ever seen pitched.
I agree with TR, Mays... the best.
What was the quote on Koufax and his velocity..."it sounded like a strike"
I love these discussions.
JH, thanks for getting it started.

Athletes are better today. (yardstick being velo, run time, sparq, smart training,technology etc)

Baseball players were better yesteryear. (yardstick being fielding percentage, intangibles.., baseball smarts, team play, etc.)


Hard to compare because stats kept now vs. then are apples to oranges.

When routine plays are botched at the major league level and kids are drafted on "projectability" instead of playable physical/mental skill combination it creates the trade off of "we will physically develop baseball players out of athletes" but baseball is a mental game. A TOTAL INTANGIBLE.

I feel baseball players as athletes are far above the old days with year around training, very few smokers(Joe Dimaggio often ducked into the runway for a smoke as did Lou Gehrig) and just being bigger, stronger, faster. Having said that I don't think they're necessarily better BASEBALL players since in the 30's thru early 50's players had to fight their way through multiple tiers of minor leagues with as many as 40 to 50 LEAGUES existing in the late 40's. It was a massive scramble to get to the top of the pyramid. Some teams like the Cardinals and Yankees had over 15-20 minor league teams. The other professional sports did not necessarily have the best athletes as the NFL was small and the NBA not even existing or just forming. Baseball was truly king until the late 50's to early 60's.

Growing up in St Louis and watching Gibson pitch, my POV, there has been none better.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
top all time team btw based on stats:

1b Lou Gehrig
2b Joe Morgan
SS Honus Wagner
3b Mike Schmidt
LF Ted Williams
CF Willie Mays
RF Babe Ruth
C Johnny Bench

Gotta go with .358 career HoF MInf/Corner over 23 years rather than a .271 career HoF'er over 22 years

2b Rojah Hornsby

And behind the dish, gotta go with the best hitting catcher..a .308 career hitter with 427 HR rather then Bench a 17 yr HoF'er hitting .267 with 389 HS, and could flat out catch.
Berra (.285 358 HR) has similar stats with Bench.

Hard to argue the rest.

Hey TR...Think kids today are "projectable" having "instincts" and not projectable skills?? I wonder how many great players who would be phenomenal Pro's that are missed because they don't run a sub 7 60......

J23

I do not think the sub 7 60 counts as much as we think it does---if the kid can run the bases and get a good jump on the ball his foot speed is incidental