We were in a 14U tournament this weekend. Kid facing us threw 142 pitches. The other teams coach was telling them that he only threw 109(still about 30 too many). Make sure YOU know the count. To let you know, our books lady has been doing this for 15 years and is on her 4th kid going through baseball. She gets it right.

The variation in pitch counts arises when the "pitch-keeper" does not include foul balls after two strikes---many just add up the balls and strikes for each batter---example--a 3-2 count can include 10 pitches when all is said and son---there is only one pitch counter on our team---ME---I am in the stands --I allow our coaches to do their thing and not worry about pitch counts---they check with me--actually if the count is high the good coaches will know without asking---in fact my guys will ask for example " what is he at, 85/90 pitches?"

There is another way that pitch counts are under-counted. I'm not making this up!

The scorekeeper simply forgets to include the last pitch of each at-bat. So if a player has a 2-2 count and strikes out, the book shows 2 strikes, 2 balls, and a "K". Some scorekeepers fail to count the 5th pitch of the at-bat. Add in the foul balls that aren't counted, and 30 pitches can be missed easily.

The several SKs I've encountered who have counted this way have all been utterly unable to see any problem with their approach.

Have a pitch counter separate from the SK who already has enough to to. Buy a tally counter at an office supply store. Have your person check with the other team's counter each half inning. If there is a discrepancy, check with the official book score keeper. Then sit together.

Daque


First of all pitch counts are not official stats and , in fact, some teams do not even keep them---there is no way I check with the other teams scorekeeper, if they even have one--many teams leave it up the tournament people as their book is the official book and they have no obligation to keep my teams pitch count

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Daque


First of all pitch counts are not official stats and , in fact, some teams do not even keep them---there is no way I check with the other teams scorekeeper, if they even have one--many teams leave it up the tournament people as their book is the official book and they have no obligation to keep my teams pitch count

Some youth programs have pitch count rules. It's important to reconcile the count between teams at the end of each inning. You don't want to lose because the opposing team's stud was allowed to exceed the count.

RJM

That does not happen at the lever we play at

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The several SKs I've encountered who have counted this way have all been utterly unable to see any problem with their approach.

Yikes! Their son must not be a pitcher

The OP was pointing out the discrepancy in pitch counts, albeit gratuitous. I was pointing out a methodology to minimize the problem. Not all tournaments have pitching restrictions and so the count is merely for the benefit of the team keeping it.

If the other team has the official book and if pitch counts are used, then it behooves you to keep your own count and verify that with the official SK. I presented a method to do that. Fin.

The point is that as a parent, you need to keep track of what your son is doing on the mound. I wasn't sure if the SK just made mistakes or the coach was lying to the parents to get a win. It looked like the coach was trying for a win because it was his horse and he didn't have anybody else who could get the job done. I don't know if the parents cared either way. They were quite proud of their sons achievement that day. He pitched a great game. We watched the next game and the next three pitchers the coach put out there couldn't get an out and they were run ruled. Either way, a parent needs to know the truth.

Be cautious with your kids arm.

My son was in a league (overseas Youth Services on a military base) with a pitch count restriction for HS ball (16 - 18 year olds). Trust me, the other team kept his pitch count and insisted he come out when it was reached. He was allowed to finish an at bat if it went over. Our team's pitch counter and theirs had to reconcile after each inning so there were no controversies. Sometimes an inexperienced counter had to be educated that you DO count foul balls but do NOT count warm-ups . This is why you need to talk about it early on and have the umpire intervene if anyone has it wrong. Pitch counter sat with Score keeper.

The limit for that league was 105. They played double headers on Saturdays only.

Now that I am more familiar with reasonable pitch counts - that I learned here on this site - I think that league has it wrong. We have moved, and in our new area, it is rare to see a HS pitcher exceed 90-100. Maybe if he is close to a complete game or a shut out and still performing well with no indication of pain... but usually they come out much earlier than that. Our coaches know how to take care of arms.

I kept the score book for a long time with junior high and high school baseball. Very seldom did I even keep track of balls and strikes; much less each individual pitch.

I still want to know why warm up "tosses," bullpen before the game, long toss before the game, pick offs, and making defensive plays (ground balls, etc) aren't counted in the pitch count. It's the same motion.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
RJM

That does not happen at the lever we play at

I know. I also know these rules were put in place long after you left these age groups. That's why I was tying the logic of the two converstions together.

No problem

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I still want to know why warm up "tosses," bullpen before the game, long toss before the game, pick offs, and making defensive plays (ground balls, etc) aren't counted in the pitch count. It's the same motion.

The intensity is different. A defensive play may well be the same intensity but the motion is different. It is not the throws that are being limited but rather pitches. A pitch = motion plus intensity.

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The intensity is different. A defensive play may well be the same intensity but the motion is different. It is not the throws that are being limited but rather pitches. A pitch = motion plus intensity.

So the first time a pitcher turns it on and really lets loose is as soon as the game starts? Not before? And once he's in the game, it's all out every single pitch?

Right.

quote:

I still want to know why warm up "tosses," bullpen before the game, long toss before the game, pick offs, and making defensive plays (ground balls, etc) aren't counted in the pitch count. It's the same motion.

Much of the pitch count guidelines come from ASMI. When they developed the pitch count guidelines, they took into consideration the pre-game and warm-ups. So, if you were to count them as part of your pitch count, you would actually be doubling them up in terms of the documented recommended pitch counts.

I agree as well that between inning warm-ups and much of the pre-game warm-ups are not the same intensity as in-game pitches. I know my son only throws about 60-75% when warming up between innings. Just enough to get loose again.

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So the first time a pitcher turns it on and really lets loose is as soon as the game starts? Not before? And once he's in the game, it's all out every single pitch?

The first time he pitches to a batter the count is on. Fastball, change, curve all count the same. Foul balls and wild pitches count. Any ball delivered to the batter from the rubber counts.

Pitchers find their cruise velocity and intensity for every pitch and that is below all out and warm up. It may vary some and occasionally they reach back for a little more.

I cannot tell if you are being argumentative, asking a legitimate question, or are trying to make a point. Makes no difference really.

I keep track of pitch counts. In fact, I chart every pitch. I call the pitches and chart them where I call them. I keep track of location and pitch type called then the result of the pitch.

Dain: You are a busy beaver! Do you sit on a bucket outside of the dugout too? At what age, if ever, do you feel it is permissable for the battery to call their own game? For me it is at age 10.