BBDad I agree with most of your last statement. You can develop velocity and I know several who have had 10mph jumps in college. Jeff Francis as I have pointed out several times was throwing 80mph as a freshman at UBC. He couldn't get a US college to sign him. He is now mid 90s and making 13 M a year. There are several factors and varying rates developing a FB. Maturization is a mojor one.

My son is 14 and is just now developing a curveball but has only thrown a couple in a game. He lives off of the 2seamer (lot of movement) and mixes in a 4 seamer and a CU with movement. He throws well but certainly not overpowering. I think 13 is an ok age to start to develop the curve if he is already doing well with the fb/cu and will use it sparingly. Just gives the other batters something else to worry about.

Make sure he is taught good mechanics. The CB is not a violent pitch but a smooth pitch with you arm staying slightly bent after release. It is more about the wrist and fringers than the arm.

quote:

I think Orel Hershiser had the best advice for young pitchers. He said no curveballs until 16 or older.

Based on what research?

I don't think there is a sure right or wrong about this debate.

When my son was in LL, curves were considered risky, as were high pitch counts. His LL coach played it safe with all his pitchers and allowed no curves and kept low pitch counts (50-60). We didn't win the championships, but I thank him for this. This developed more pitchers and developed the other players defensively as more balls were put in play.

From 13-15, my son was small and a good position player, so his coaches and I erred on the side of caution with his pitching and continued the same no curves, low pitch counts. I also was not confident that he would be taught the right way to throw the curve, and I didn't want to be that helicopter parent that coaches their son from the stands. In HS, I let the coaches teach him a curve. After throwing the curve for two years, his scouting report says that his curve is his best pitch, a strong out pitch with great depth and downward break.

My point is that he didn't need to throw the curve at 12 years old for it to become his best pitch. Maybe there are kids that are getting away with throwing curves at a young age, but it wasn't worth the risk to me. Pitching success at an early age can also lead to high pitch counts and overuse on teams where winning becomes too important.

There will be new studies that may have different results than the studies we are looking at now. Look at the rules for pregnant women. Every child we had, the rules changed due to the latest studies. There have been tons of healthy babies born to smoking or drinking mothers, but we don't encourage pregant women to do these things. We weigh the risk, and make a decision.

The OP has a point, about what is the next level. Maybe the risk of curves at a young age outweighs the long odds of continuing to play beyond high school. For a pitcher only, the decision may be different than a player that has a future as a hitter and position player.

BBHD,
I think one of the issues with throwing too many curves at a young age is that it doesn't allow the change to develop and it doesn't develop the fastball.

Actually a lot of coaches in HS will use a curveballer who can get the ball over. HS hitters generally can't hit the curve well. It starts to change at the college level and players who can't hit the curve wash out at the pro level so the curveballers without a decent fastball tend to go away pretty quickly at the pro level if they ever get the chance to play at that level.

4 seamer,

quote:

Alright,seriously, is 13 too young to throw 10 or so curveballs per game? Who REALLY abused his arm more?

Then Let’s get real serious here! Depends?

How many is the number? The youth injury rates have gone up 5 fold in ten years. This is why when prestigious firms like ASMI gets it wrong with every recommendation because they promote over-use as a culprit instead of the mechanics it shows their real competence but they are learning and they will eventually discover it also.
If your mechanics are injury free you can only suffer from diminished capacity and in human beings that is huge. Then there are only bone length issues.

At biologically aged 10 YO your sons elbow does not even show up on and X-Ray.
At biologically aged 11 YO your sons elbow starts to show up as a dime sized.
At biologically aged 12 YO your son’s elbow becomes a quarters size.
At biologically aged 13 YO your sons elbow finally solidifies where you can see it on an x-ray. Your son’s elbow is basically underdeveloped soft tissue in a vulnerable time frame. Do you know your son’s biological age?!!
This means your sons Elbow is going through a massive growth change right at this time
and if he ballisticly crashes his upper arm with his lower arm from over extension from hard supination he will put his elbow at risk for cartilage deformation that turns into bone chips later, he will put all the growth plates in the elbow area at risk of premature closure and catistrophic failure!, he will deform the bone at the crashing points (capitilum) so that he will lose extension range of motion and worse, he will be more susceptible to avulsions from his muscles have to eccentrically contract to stop the crashing from happening which causes problems in the shoulder, I can go on and on.

Supination (thumb up drive and finish) causes these problems!!
The stress levels for these pitches are
1. Supinated Cutter. Fastball with the most stress.
2. Supinated Slider. You should see the injury ratios go up in colleges and pros when these two pitches are finally taught.
3. Supinated curve while less stressful still ballisticly crashes your sons elbow together!!!!
In the middle 1960's, Dr. Joel Adams of San Bernadino, CA conducted the only credible research into the subject using x-ray analysis on over 600 youth baseball players. He found that ninety-five percent of the pitchers in his study had suffered irreparable damage to their pitching arms. Not to the point that most pitchers could not still pitch, but to the point that premature closure permanently shortened the bones of their throwing arms and perturbed and deformed All of them to some degree and many to totality.
Dr Marshall who was involved with this was the first to make this call out to the baseball world about supination and the traditionally taught curve.

Teach your sons and daughters to pronate (thumb down drive and release) so that their arm hinges and they will then only suffer from slight bone and ligament stress.
If you want a curve there is a two safe way ‘s to throw a curve pronated drive and release!! The pronated thumb slip curve (very very fun!)and the Marshall pronated curve.

quote:

The OP has a point, about what is the next level. Maybe the risk of curves at a young age outweighs the long odds of continuing to play beyond high school.

There was a kid from Saugus, MA in the LLWS a few years ago freaking people out with how many curves he was throwing. The response was baseball was a secondary sport to him. When the LLWS was over he was done playing organized baseball.

quote:

This is why when prestigious firms like ASMI gets it wrong

And of course Dr Mike Marshall is God's gift to the universe and has everything right while Hall of Fame pitchers have been pitching incorrectly for one hundred years. If the word Nym@n is banned from this site, I nominate the word Marshall. It's not Marshall's ideas that annoy me. It's the interjection and ruination of every thread where his culties get involved.

quote:

In the middle 1960's, Dr. Joel Adams of San Bernadino, CA conducted the only credible research into the subject using x-ray analysis on over 600 youth baseball players.

Did we even have x-ray technology in the 1960's. (joking)

It sort of looks like you had to search back 45 years to find a study that supported your argument here. Not saying your right or wrong, but I would think you could find a more recent study.

Yardbird, interesting. You've got me scared to let him throw at all! Seriously. You do. But thanks for the info. It's good food for thought.
Daque, he IS playing 60/90, as well as some 54/80.Surprisingly enough, He hasn't had ANY problem going back and forth in the same week. He does have 2 and 4 seamers and a circle change. I agree that alowing him to throw the cb makes him not care as much about the cu and I hate that. His cu is his BEST pitch when he has cofidence in it. Problem is, he doesn't always get it over. He can throw a 12-6 curve over ANYTIME.And he KNOWS IT. He was taught how to throw it by a minor league pitching coach, who said it was the safe way to throw it. His pitch counts are the lowest I've ever seen because of groundballs and pop flys. He NEVER sees 50 pitches in a game. Thats why I'm so intrigued by this stuff. His ability to throw cb ANYTIME totally baffles opposing hitters. Therefore he can use it sparingly.

quote:

Originally posted by Blprkfrnks:
I don't think there is a sure right or wrong about this debate.

When my son was in LL, curves were considered risky, as were high pitch counts. His LL coach played it safe with all his pitchers and allowed no curves and kept low pitch counts (50-60). We didn't win the championships, but I thank him for this. This developed more pitchers and developed the other players defensively as more balls were put in play.

From 13-15, my son was small and a good position player, so his coaches and I erred on the side of caution with his pitching and continued the same no curves, low pitch counts. I also was not confident that he would be taught the right way to throw the curve, and I didn't want to be that helicopter parent that coaches their son from the stands. In HS, I let the coaches teach him a curve. After throwing the curve for two years, his scouting report says that his curve is his best pitch, a strong out pitch with great depth and downward break.

My point is that he didn't need to throw the curve at 12 years old for it to become his best pitch. Maybe there are kids that are getting away with throwing curves at a young age, but it wasn't worth the risk to me. Pitching success at an early age can also lead to high pitch counts and overuse on teams where winning becomes too important.

There will be new studies that may have different results than the studies we are looking at now. Look at the rules for pregnant women. Every child we had, the rules changed due to the latest studies. There have been tons of healthy babies born to smoking or drinking mothers, but we don't encourage pregant women to do these things. We weigh the risk, and make a decision.

The OP has a point, about what is the next level. Maybe the risk of curves at a young age outweighs the long odds of continuing to play beyond high school. For a pitcher only, the decision may be different than a player that has a future as a hitter and position player.

Outstanding post. You seem more concerned with your son's development than his stats and that is the way it ought to be imho.

RJM - Hershiser seems like a reputable source to me and his logic made sense to me. He said he developed that notion from Walter Alston who also seems like a reputable source to me. hokione's logic makes sense to me as well.

Look, people are entitlted to their opinions. If you think young players ought to be throwing curves then so be it - I could care less what your research tells you. I would rather be safe than sorry. As some of the posts have pointed out, you may be robbing them of the chance to properly develop their fastballs. The fastball will always be the most important pitch in baseball imho. Why do you think the guys who get drafted the highest each year have the best fastballs?

quote:

In the middle 1960's, Dr. Joel Adams of San Bernadino, CA conducted the only credible research into the subject using x-ray analysis on over 600 youth baseball players. He found that ninety-five percent of the pitchers in his study had suffered irreparable damage to their pitching arms.

In 1782 a study conducted by a group of Native American shamen and mages found that using juniper plants ground into a juicy pile it could be used to cure ingrown toenails. Also, if applied to the elbow then it can help the recovery time of throwing spears.

Another study conducted in 1238 by a group of wizards found that hog's tooth ground into a powder and mixed with wolfsbane would create a cream that could cure halitosis - or as they called it back then "devil's breath" because anything that smelled that bad had to come from the devil.

There are some really great scientific studies from way back when. I really like the one where leeches could suck the evil out of a person. That alone probably revolutionized the world of medicine more than anything.

Yardbird I actually agree with a couple things you posted.
I don't agree with the CB bone crahing if you keep you elbow at shoulder level and do not straighten your arm out at finish.
I don't think you can throw a ball without some stress on ligaments. That is why you work so hard on strengthening them.

24 learned to throw a cb at age 12, but did not use it in games until he moved to the 90 foot diamond. Before that he got by with a 2 seam and 4 seam FB.

Now as a varsity HS picher, the CB is his out pitch. He locates it well and can throw it at any count. But he throws it less than 30% of the time.

The only arm issues he has had, in my humble opinion, occured from overuse, not from the properly thrown CB.

Agree with 4 seamer, the ability to throw the CB at any point is most effective, but you don't have to throw it all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Bobblehead

I respectfully disagree

Speaking as a hitters dad to a pitchers dad the toughest pitch for a good hitter is the slider--

i just wanted to say i disagree unless the guy throws 100 mph.
otherwise you have time to see the "dot" that forms on a conventional slider and is absolutely obvious and the hitter

quote:

Hershiser seems like a reputable source to me and his logic made sense to me. He said he developed that notion from Walter Alston who also seems like a reputable source to me.

What makes Orel Hershiser and Walter Alston experts on youth baseball? What evidence did they provide to validate their opinions on youth baseball? Otherwise it's no more of an opinion than anyone elses. We could even call it a wild guess. And I'll bet there are many youth coaches who have done more homework on youth pitching than Hershiser and Alston.

I'm not saying I know more about pitching than Hershiser and Alston. But I'll bet I've done a lot more research and talked or exchanged emails with experts on youth sports than Hershiser and Alston. I'll take legitmate advice from respected members of this board before taking it from them.

RJM,

Are you still reading my posts? I warned you before that you have the right to bypass them! Breath.

quote:

“If the word Nym@n is banned from this site”

Is this true? How did you get that done? Here let me see, *****?

quote:

“I nominate the word Marshall”

Then I will use Dr.MM

quote:

“It's not Marshall's ideas that annoy me.”

Do vexed people recognize their vexism?

quote:

“It's the interjection and ruination of every thread”

I think that’s only for you and a few others?

quote:

“where his culties get involved.”

We are cool aid drinkers not Cultists and we use sugar not strychnine.

Breath!

Blprkfrnks,

quote:

“It sort of looks like you had to search back 45 years to find a study that supported your argument here.”

All kinesiological finding since support the merits of the research and have been used in the development in the football throw, racket drive (tennis and badminton), javelin and other overhead projection which they all incorporate pronation into their pedagogy! Baseball is the only traditional sport to not take advantage of the information fully.

quote:

“Not saying your right or wrong, but I would think you could find a more recent study.”

I would love to see the baseball community (MLB and Colleges) pay for an actual combined effort to replicate the original discovery and corrective recommendations. Unfortunately the Org’s that people look up to refuse to recognize the research because they have been selling their injurious product for so long they have become intransigent.

I don't agree that the cb is bad on the arm. I believe mostly it is a tradition passed from one generation to the next on the baseball field. The issue I have is with throwing too many hard fastballs on improperly conditioned arms- that is what damages arms in my opinion. It just so happens that kids with really hard fastballs also have really good curves (usually) and in my opinion the cb gets balmed for the damage that the fastball has done on the weakened arm.

Most kids who learn to throw the cb do it naturally on their own and it usually starts out as more of a frisbee type of slow pitch or changeup for the first year or two with som tumble or slight break effect. A kid throwing 45-55 mph curveballs at age 12 is not going to be putting their arm in any real stress- it's just not thrown hard enough! And when they finally do get to have a feel for it by the time they are 13-14 it is a true breaking ball that in my opinion can be thrown fairly often in games with no ill effects. its the fastball count they must watch! Fastballs are generally thrown at a near max or max effort. This means that they are pushing the very limits of what their bone and muscles structures can handle at early ages.

Also, I have recorded a lot of kids pitching over the past few years and I have yet to find but just a few 11-14 year old kids throwing their cb with a supination release. Almost every kid I watch pronates either during or immediately following release. This to me tells me that they are getting the ball more out in front at release and getting their hand flicking down like a fastball at release.

Its kind of interesting as to how many times in a youth game where after 3-4 innings of pitching fastaballs, the youth pitcher will say "my arm is getting sore" and it raises no alarms whatsoever and yet- if that kid even threw just one cb, everyone is saying how it was because of the cb that his arm hurts and that the coach should know better.

Let's put place the buck where it belongs! Sore arms and weakened muscles are almost entirely from throwing too many fastballs on an improperly conditioned arm.

Improper throwing mechanics.
Trying to throw too much without throwing enough.
Overuse especially at a young age.

The players that have good throwing mechanics , throw on a regular basis and are not overused hardly ever complain of a sore arm. The rest constantly do.