I know in my son's case that the coaches called most of the pitches from the bench to the catcher. Even in college the coach called about 75% of each game. Unfortunately his #1 catcher is leaving because of this. He came from a JC where he called the games very well. The pitchers were all upset with the coach called games so it can have a negative impact on the morale of the team.
At the college level the coach's job depends on winning and the way to win is to have a happy team with resposibily of the decisions in the game.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
How do the catchers in HS/College learn how to call a game if they don't get to call the pitches?

We allow our catchers to call the game and we talk with them between innings about the calls and we include the pitcher in the discussion as well-- many time the catcher has a very valid reason for calling the pitch even if it hurt them

Good point.
The college coach who allows their catchers and pitchers to work together has trust in the players that he has recruited. This is something that is worked on is practice, over and over and over and over. Some get it, some don't. When a pitcher shakes off a pitch, or catcher gives the wrong call, the result can be painful, but you learn quickly. You bear the responsibility, not the coach. That's how you learn.
Most top D1 programs catchers call their own stuff with the pitcher able to shake off if he wishes. Occassionally when the game is on the line, the coach will call the pitches. Most coaches know they have to let go, or the catcher will never develop passed that point, and end up designated to the bullpen. The reason I think some don't allow it is because they just don't know how to do it or don't spend time teaching it. Or have such huge egos they have to control everything.
The coach (whoever) that teaches catchers to call their own game is doing their job, that is letting the player develop. In HS games the coach called the pitches because the catcher couldn't figure it out. In higher level travel ball, you had to call your game. No wonder most of them got recruited to top programs, were always the starting catcher and now in pro ball.

This is my opinion from a parent who was very happy to see player develop needed skills to advance and that was taking direction from his catchers.

Also, MLB catchers don't get paid mega bucks to get direction from the manager. Not sure where bballman got that info. Speaking of too much at stake, getting signs from the dugout doesn't allow the pitcher to work quickly and get into his rythym. Without that, a pitcher cannot successfully throw his game.

As redbird suggests, once you teach sequence, and explain what needs to be accomplished, the smart ones understand.

The QB sleeve is great stuff!

A HS catcher calling his own game with tools, a good pitcher who can work with this system gets lot of attention come recruiting time.

Considering this board covers teams from pre-hs to the pros, the catchers calling the game should be placed along the learning curve as the catcher in question becomes more proficient.

Having said that, if the discussion is about a hs or college age catcher who has displayed the other tools, why would a coach deny the player the chance to develop a skill required for the position? What other position would be so handicapped?

There are any number of things the coach cannot know accurately from the dugout that would go into the catcher's choice --- how much are pitches breaking, where is HU's zone, a whole range of body clues from the batter, what pitches are working on the day, how confident is the pitcher showing he is (not saying he is) on certain pitches or in certain situations, where is the pitcher missing, what zone can the pitcher throw to to get the call from that ump, is he missing inside or outside....

If a coach is retaining the right to call the game, it would seem to indicate either he doesn't trust his catcher or his ego requires him to retain that control. The former means he has some coaching to do; the latter may or may not mean success for the team, but it's not a baseball reason.

At the professional level, some defensive signals will be given from the bench, but, in general, the catchers call their games based on scouting info, the pitcher's tools and their own skill. There are always exceptions; I was surprised to learn that Pudge didn't call games, for example.

Brian:

trying to help.... what is your method for signaling? Are you flashing the same signs as the catcher between your legs?

Yes. Flashing 1 to 5 fingers and fist as signals between legs while sitting on bucket to catcher, who flashes same signal to pitcher.

Our pitchers are allowed to shake off a pitch. But, at 11U, we (coaches) call all the pitches initially.

We didn't have many problems with signal stealing this season until a BPA World Series, where we were kinda shocked to see systemic and preplanned signal stealing from some of the better teams. (One team that did this was the WS host team.) We played one team that had coaches outside their dugout holding clipboards. They, would steal the signal from our pitching coach, then relay a signal to the 3rd base coach, who would relay the signal to the 1st basecoach. At the same time, the coach outside the dugout, would say a phrase to the hitter to indicate change-up, fastball, or pickoff/pitchout.

It worked against us as we lost a very close game basically because they knew when the change-up was coming and knew not to steal or leadoff when we had a pickoff/pitchout called and knew when to steal when we had a pitch called.

BTW, I don't think stealing signals is cheating. I think its in bad taste to get caught and continue with it. And I think it unsportsman like to actually have a practiced system for stealing and relaying signals to youth players. But I've always figured its up to my team to keep the signals private.

I need to be better prepared for next season as I anticipate seeing more of this (signal stealing) activity. We will work with the pitcher/catchers on pitch calling, but will likely continue to call most games from the bucket.

Going to try the QB wrist method since I saw it used in the College WS very effectively, without any game delays.

[quote]but at 11U we call 100% of the pitches /quote]

11 years old? Throw a strike

i think because you are dealing with 11 and 12 year olds and the limited complexity of signals you likely have, it would be much easier just to go to the standard "face-touch" system.

FWIW, I have had over 95% of the teams' signals that we have faced in travel ball. Not once have I relayed them to our hitters. Not in a pool game or even a championship game...whether ahead or behind. IMO, it doesn't make them better hitters and THAT is why we travel. I want our kids to see filthy sliders, overpowering fastballs. It only makes them better.

I agree with the need to call pitches as a coach. We did when our catchers were young and learning and in big games, when we took responsibility. When they became jr's or showed maturity, I began working with game calling skills in the pen. No one speaks often enough about the preparation that goes into calling a game. You just don't send a kid out and let him choose from the list. You come up with a game plan based on your pitcher and what you know about your opponent. You prepare your catcher in pens, and have a good chat before game time.

Coachric, at what age do/did you allow your catchers to call the pitches? If not an age, did you prepare them to become proficient and knowledgeable about their position and then turn them loose when you felt they were ready-regardless of age?
Or do you as a coach feel the need to always call the pitches at any age or confidence level?

My goal is to have our catcher call his own game. No one is in a better posistion to call pitches than the catcher. An experienced catcher can see the batters approach based on his stance and any adjustments he is making from pitch to pitch. He knows what the pitcher has working for him that day and he knows his pitchers. I have not called a single pitch in four years. Next year we will have a soph behind the plate. We have been working with all out catchers teaching them pitch sequence's. My goal is to teach every catcher how to call his own game. We do allow our pitchers to shake and throw what they feel comfortable throwing. But the bottom line is if the pitchers have confidence in their catcher they rarely if ever shake him off.

Part of being a catcher is learning why you throw a certain pitch in a certain situation. Too many HS coaches see calling pitches as a part of their job as a coach. Actually in my opinion its your job to teach your catchers to call their own game. If you have to do it then you are not doing your job. Of course with young catchers you have to teach them. But when they are ready you need to let them do it. This is just my opinion. But I want our players to run the game. Plus there is such a better flow to the game when the pitcher gets the ball looks in and pitches. I hate all that down time between pitches.

From Coach May:

"Part of being a catcher is learning why you throw a certain pitch in a certain situation. Too many HS coaches see calling pitches as a part of their job as a coach. Actually in my opinion its your job to teach your catchers to call their own game. If you have to do it then you are not doing your job. Of course with young catchers you have to teach them. But when they are ready you need to let them do it. This is just my opinion. But I want our players to run the game. Plus there is such a better flow to the game when the pitcher gets the ball looks in and pitches. I hate all that down time between pitches."

Thanks, CM, it's refreshing to find a coach that doesn't allow his ego to get in the way. Please keep up the good work.

Hello Moc1. Yes, my goal like others here is to have the catcher call the game. In my 33 yrs coaching I have seen some good ones and some not so good. Could be reflective of the coaching, who knows! But at the high school level, you will see kids who have the qualities, and they will show them early, maybe frosh or soph's, but often there is a senior catcher in front and next in line may be a jr before playing time equals experience and opportunities. Working in the pen on game calling skills does depend on the receiver. If he's still learning the position and he not the fastest learner, its a "one thing at a time" approach. I have always believed that teaching happens at every practice and there's always something to teach. So as soon as the catcher shows the quality of leadership and listens to the game plan and shows he can execute it, he gets the opportunity to be his own man. Its definitely different for each kid, but at many levels through college and even minors, coaches are still calling pitches, and thats why its accepted. Its not necessarily the best way. In the end, the pitcher should always have the "wave off" nod if he knows whats working for him, again depending on the trained level of the pitcher. My stance is that the more time spent on preparation and teaching, the better the future outcome.

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
....it's refreshing to find a coach that doesn't allow his ego to get in the way. Please keep up the good work.

MOCK, it sounds as if you have an axe to grind. Just because a coach calls pitches doesn't mean he has an ego. I know some coaches that are remarkable at teaching and prefer to call pitches. The self-righteous opinion that NO coaches should call pitches is absolutely ridiculous.

Here's a scenario:

Let's say runners on first and second, no outs. Three hole at the plate. Do you think most pre-HS catchers (since this is the Pre-HS forum) will have the presence of mind to put in an inside pick to see if the batter is bunting?

Coachric, Thanks for your response. Could not agree with you more. Each player has a different learning level and understanding that IMO is one of the qualities of a good coach.

GM this goes directly to what I teach and why I teach it. If players have to wait or have to be told what to do then they are playing behind the game and instead of playing ahead of it. If you have to tell kids what to do during a game by putting on a pick play in an obvious bunt situation then you have not coached them properly before the game.

The players must play the game and learn to play the games within the game. You should not start learning that once in HS but before you get there. In a situation like this your players should have a sequence that they understand and "they" play out. First of all if its the 3 hole hitter the chances of a bunt are less likely than if its other hitters in the line up with the exception of the 4 hitter. Plus what is the situation in the game? Are we up by 9 in the 5th? Or is this a bunt situation? The first thing should be a freeze move to see if the batter shows bunt. Secondly a soft step off move to first again to see if the batter shows. The next move could be a fastball off the plate to a rh hitter and a pick play to first or a pick to 2b depending on how aggressive the runner is in the lead posistion.

There are several things that can be done in this situation to try and steal an out. But these are the things that you teach in practice so the players can execute them in a game. If everytime you need to put something on you have to give a signal to the players then who is playing the game you or the players? What are you really teaching them? Look to me and I will tell you what to do.

The goal imo should be to teach your players how to call pitches so you dont have to do it. Teach them to call the game so they learn the game. Teach them game situations in practice so they can play the game and you can allow them to play the game without dictating every move they make. I see this a lot with base running. Players can not make their own decisions on the bases they have to look at the coach to tell them what to do in situations where they are the one thats needs to make that split second decision in order to be a great base runner.

The bottom line is a lot of coaches are so hung up on coaching up players in games that their players are static waiting to be told what to do instead of playing the game and learning how to make ball player decisons.

Please do not take this as a personal attack you I am sure are a very good coach. If you want to call pitches fine its your team. I do not want to call pitches. I want to teach the players how to do it. I will do it but only when I have a guy that is not ready. But I will be working on getting him ready as soon as possible.

I believe that players who have the freedom to just play the game without constant directions and advice from the dugout play at a level the other players can not. If I have to coach them up during a game I have not been doing my job in practice.

Some coaches call the pitches because they want control. Some call pitches because they believe they can do a better job than their player. Some call pitches because they like to give signals and it keeps them busy during the game. Some do it because they like to do it. Some dont call pitches because they are lazy. I dont field during the game. I dont pitch and I dont hit. So why would I want to take calling the pitches and learning the game away from my catcher? They need to learn this because it teaches them about the game and their posistion. Even if they never call a single pitch in college at least they understand why a certain pitch is called and why a certain pitch is not called.

When I coached younger pre hs kids every practice had a built in period where we worked on "defensive game situations"

1st and Thirds
Bunt Defense
Pick off plays to all bags
Cut plays
Holding runners

If you do all the thinking for your players in games when are they going to learn to think for themselves? Teach them the game in practice and then give them the freedom to execute it in games.

My coaching in a situation you described would be "Hey you know we had a 1 and 2 with no outs there. What could we have put on that would have been a good move in that situation? OK next time make sure we try and steal an out there."

Players will play to the level they are coached to play at and expected to play at. They will also wait for the coach to tell them what to do if they are not allowed to play the game without being coached up during the game.

Sorry for the long post. But one of my pet peeves is Coaches that try and coach during a game. Coach in the dugout after an inning. Coach them after the game. And by all means coach the heck out of them in practice. If your doing your job in practice you wont have to coach them up during a game. I take notes during a game so we can discuss what we could have and should have done better. We them work on those things in practice. I also take positive notes about things we did well so I can praise them for making good decisions and being agressive.

Again I do not know you but the mere fact you are on this site tells me you enjoy the game and you care. And I am sure you are a fine coach. And calling pitches does not make you a bad person its just the way you do things so thats fine. Please do not take my post as an attack on you because it is not.

I hereby nominate this last post by Coach May for Post of the Month.

I "second" your nomination.

Very good post, Coach May, and no, I do not take anything you said personally. I greatly appreciate your point of view and agree with teaching players the game within the game so that they might always continue to learn.

Baseball coaches all have their own way of teaching the greatest game and the ones with continued success obviously are doing something right. I know many successful youth, HS and college coaches that fall on both sides of the fence regarding calling pitches.

For posters to think that their way is the only way and that those that opt to do differently are "ruining baseball" is a very ignorant stance IMO.

Thank you again for the fine post.

I totally agree with you GM. There is no one way to do it. What works for you and what works for your players? I have had some fine catchers over the years that just could not call a game to my satisfaction. I tried to teach them. But the fact is they could not get a feel for the game and they preferred to leave it in the coaches hands. I have had some that loved calling their own game and were very good at it. Of course I want them to do it for the reasons I posted above. But there are times when its just not going to work best for the team.

I believe a good coach is always learning and always looking for better ways to coach. I also believe that the ability to inspire your players to reach higher is one of the most important qualities a coach can have. Sometimes it not how much you know its how well you can communicate what you do know. This is a good thread with a lot of great points of view.

I would be willing to bet if we all coached together we would have an absolute blast doing it. And we would all come away from it learning something that would make us better.