We have a dugout coach (coach sitting on a bucket) that signals all pitches to the catcher that get relayed to the pitcher.

Typically, at what player age do coaches stop calling every pitch and let the pitcher/catcher call the pitches?

I know its a very general question, but at 11U we call 100% of the pitches and pick-off moves. Just wondering at what typical age would we need to let the pitcher/catcher make those decisions.

And if the common answer is that most high school coaches continue to call all pitches, then I'll open a separate forum post asking how to keep the other teams from stealing your signals...

Most HS coaches call pitches, at least in our area.

I coach a 14U team and we approach it differently. We have allowed our C's to call pitches since they were 10U. BUT...we have taken A LOT of time explaining our sequences and what we are trying to accomplish. We have NEVER signaled in picks. Our players are smart enough to do this on their own...this goes back to 9U.

How do you stop a team from stealing your signals? Be smarter than the other team and listen to how they communicate to their hitters. If you hear the same phrases over and over again, you can assume they have your signals. We have a touch system for relaying signals IF we need to. Also, many teams are going with the QB Wrist Coach for signals. Either way, just keep the game moving.

Thanks for the tip on the QB Wrist Coach. A couple weeks ago, we had an incident where the opposing team clearly had our signals and used it against us since we call all pitches and pickoffs "from the bucket."

I found the following article to be helpful and I think we will implement this next year.

http://www.collegiatebaseball.com/features/the_pick_proof.htm

Are they stealing the signals from you or your catcher? If from you, change method. If from Catcher, then your catcher probably needs to learn how to sign better. I dont mean that in a rude way...just a matter of fact.

They are stealing them from me as I sit on the bucket and flash the signals to the catcher. Catcher to pitcher signaling is fine.

At 10 y/o.

We are still calling them at 14u. Most HS coaches in our area call them and from what I saw in the CWS, coaches call pitches in college. I know for a fact Georgia and Georgia Tech coaches call pitches. My understanding is that about 60% of MLB coaches call pitches as well. Not a fact, but what I have heard.

We will call a pick off if we see something the kids might not, but they have free reign and are expected to do what they need to keep the runners close.

With today's win-or-else attitude in HS and college athletics I would be more surprised to learn of coaches that DO NOT call the pitches. Why would one want their coaching career potentially depending upon the judgement of a young catcher?

"60% of MLB coaches call pitches as well"

Not even close. RARELY, will a ML coach or manager ever call a pitch and most ML pitchers have complete control over shaking a pitch off or not.(Rookie pitchers normally do not shake a veteran catcher off.

This is a sore subject for me. Coaches need to let the players play-teach your catchers how to call the game and let the catcher and pitcher work as a team. The catcher knows what pitch is working for his pitcher(what the pitcher has better control of as does the pitcher). Why on earth would you call a pitch that the pitcher doesn't feel comfortable
with?

Missouri beat Texas 31-12 this year-Do you think the Texas coach took credit for calling all those pitches? Or maybe blamed it on the pitchers for not hitting the spots he called?

Don't know when coaches calling pitches became the norm, maybe it was a gradual thing but I think it's ruining the game of amateur baseball from LL through college. If a coach sees something in a batter and wants to have a certain pitch thrown in a certain
situation, by all means, call the pitch. Yes, coaches(HS and College) need to win to keep their jobs, but what's the reasoning for the Rice coach who has a College World Series Championship and let his catchers call ALL the pitches.

I guess some coaches are better than others.

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
"60% of MLB coaches call pitches as well"

Not even close. RARELY, will a ML coach or manager ever call a pitch and most ML pitchers have complete control over shaking a pitch off or not.(Rookie pitchers normally do not shake a veteran catcher off.

This is a sore subject for me. Coaches need to let the players play-teach your catchers how to call the game and let the catcher and pitcher work as a team. The catcher knows what pitch is working for his pitcher(what the pitcher has better control of as does the pitcher). Why on earth would you call a pitch that the pitcher doesn't feel comfortable
with?

Missouri beat Texas 31-12 this year-Do you think the Texas coach took credit for calling all those pitches? Or maybe blamed it on the pitchers for not hitting the spots he called?

Don't know when coaches calling pitches became the norm, maybe it was a gradual thing but I think it's ruining the game of amateur baseball from LL through college. If a coach sees something in a batter and wants to have a certain pitch thrown in a certain
situation, by all means, call the pitch. Yes, coaches(HS and College) need to win to keep their jobs, but what's the reasoning for the Rice coach who has a College World Series Championship and let his catchers call ALL the pitches.

I guess some coaches are better than others.

MOC1, Wayne Graham is a fine coach but I know of many, many more coaches with national championships that DID call the pitches.

I have to disagree with you about coaches calling pitches ruining amateur baseball....let's look more at the insane costs of select ball and the so-called "advisors" that are changing the game for the worst before we rip into coaches that call pitches.

Now, I have seen many a youth baseball coach butcher the duties but not so often in college. Some college head coaches have less experience with pitchers than others and are thererfore more liberal with their catchers....especially if the receiver is an upper classman and has been in the system for a while.

The teams I have been associated with have always run our game through the catcher (pitches/locations/picks) while having the infielders look in at the coach giving signs for the pitch, their positioning and the defensive play. We're all on the same page and the catchers learn at a rapid pace. Besides, there are many, many opportunities that the catchers are allowed to call the game....but when it's a big game....not a chance.

Now if the catcher is calling the signs....how exactly do you propose a coach is to be able to get the offensive coach to tip his hand in certain situations? Is the catcher supposed to have enough wherewithal to put in a certain call and assume that his coach is looking for the result of it?

As for the Texas/Missouri rout, why would Augie Garrido need to take credit or place blame upon his kids for that mess? Matter of fact, the Longhorn catcher that caught every pitch of that game played for me the past three years and then started as a freshman for Texas this year. He had his coaches call the pitches all three years with us and again this spring at UT. He was another in a long line of successful catchers that we have had including another that was a finalist for college baseball's Johnny Bench award this year.

So I have to ask you.....

Given that his coaches have always called the pitches, is the UT catcher the exception....or the rule?

"MOC1, Wayne Graham is a fine coach but I know of many, many more coaches with national championships that DID call the pitches."

Thanks for proving my point. Obviously, if most college coaches are calling the pitches then more than likely they will win more championships. How did Graham/Rice beat those other coaches if coach-pitch-calling is as important as you obviously seem to think? Graham wrote an article for Collegiate Baseball underlining his reasoning for allowing his catchers and pitchers to call their own game and I'd say he's been pretty successful. Are you suggesting the other coaches can't do the same?

"Now if the catcher is calling the signs....how exactly do you propose a coach is to be able to get the offensive coach to tip his hand in certain situations? Is the catcher supposed to have enough wherewithal to put in a certain call and assume that his coach is looking for the result of it?"

I'm not sure what you're asking.

"As for the Texas/Missouri rout, why would Augie Garrido need to take credit or place blame upon his kids for that mess? Matter of fact, the Longhorn catcher that caught every pitch of that game played for me the past three years and then started as a freshman for Texas this year. He had his coaches call the pitches all three years with us and again this spring at UT. He was another in a long line of successful catchers that we have had including another that was a finalist for college baseball's Johnny Bench award this year."

Because that's what some coaches do. BTW, I never said Garrido called the pitches but have you ever heard a coach say, "Sorry guys, I called a lot of bad pitches today."? Of course not, but they certainly will single pitchers out for unsuccessful outings.My point about the Missouri/Texas score was to suggest how much worse could it have been if the catcher had called all the pitches? It certainly would have shortened the game considerably.

BTW, who the catcher was has no bearing on this discussion except for the fact that since you think highly of him then he quite possibly could have called his "own" game very well, could'nt he?

Exception or rule to what?

Coach calling pitches slows the game down, causes the pitcher to get out of sinc, causes the fielders to become complacent(by having to wait 10-15 seconds for each pitch), keeps the catcher and pitcher from becoming a "team", and doesn't allow the catcher to call the pitches that HE KNOWS are that pitcher's strength that particular outing.

Again, some coaches are better than others.



"

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
I'm not sure what you're asking.

Do you not realize that many pitches, pitchouts, defensive coverages and such are put in to see what the other team is wanting to do in a certain situation? By taking the coach’s ability to control this aspect of the game you would be hurting the team. If you do not understand what I am saying then you simply cannot comprehend the act of running the defense through the catcher beyond simple pitch and location. There is a complexity to running the game through the catcher and you seem to be trivializing it without understanding it.

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
Exception or rule to what?

His success…try to keep up. He obviously seems to have overcome the severe handicap of having had to play for coaches that call pitches.

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
Coach calling pitches slows the game down, causes the pitcher to get out of sinc, causes the fielders to become complacent(by having to wait 10-15 seconds for each pitch), keeps the catcher and pitcher from becoming a "team", and doesn't allow the catcher to call the pitches that HE KNOWS are that pitcher's strength that particular outing.

The coach sees what is working for the pitcher during that particular outing as well. The catcher does not have more wisdom/experience/knowledge than the coach. Period. To suggest otherwise is utter folly. Now, with most advanced systems the infielders are peeking in at the coach to get their responsibilities as well. If they are becoming complacent during a game then maybe they need to seek another sport.

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
My point about the Missouri/Texas score was to suggest how much worse could it have been if the catcher had called all the pitches? It certainly would have shortened the game considerably.

BTW, who the catcher was has no bearing on this discussion except for the fact that since you think highly of him then he quite possibly could have called his "own" game very well, could'nt he?

The catcher in that game DID call pitches for the last several innings. If you aren't aware then you should understand that when a game is no longer in doubt most coaches prefer to let the catcher handle things as the outcome has been determined. I'm confident this catcher could easily call his "own" game very well but it seems rather absurd of you to suggest that he go against the coach's system of managing his national powerhouse collegiate team by calling his "own" game. Tell me again how that makes a better TEAM?

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
Again, some coaches are better than others.

Obviously. But to paint all coaches that call pitches with such a broad brush is ridiculous. To imply that Graham is a better coach than Garrido just because Graham allows his catcher to call a game, well, that doesn’t hold water either.



Maybe instead of implying that ALL coaches who call pitches are ruining the game from LL through college you should alter your comments to the younger or more bush league variety of coach? Because in continuing down this path you seem to be questioning the credibility of many, many coaches that have achieved great success with systems that may be just beyond your grasp of comprehension.

How do the catchers in HS/College learn how to call a game if they don't get to call the pitches?

We allow our catchers to call the game and we talk with them between innings about the calls and we include the pitcher in the discussion as well-- many time the catcher has a very valid reason for calling the pitch even if it hurt them

RETIRED GM, It's a shame that you allow your ego to distort your thought process. You throw out irrelevant points to justify the fallacy of coaches calling pitches.

Does calling one coach better than another mean that the other coach is not good or successful?

Where did I say anything about a catcher overcoming a severe handicap?

You certainly assume quite a bit, too bad you can't stay on point.

I've sat in the stands and discussed this situation with many scouts who are really perplexed at how pitch calling has gotten out of hand and shake their heads when they see a catcher staring into the dugout waiting for the signal from a coach who is probably flipping a coin in his mind as to what pitch to call.

Why don't you just give us the answer as to how a coach won a World Series with a catcher calling the pitches.

If you think players at ALL levels don't get bored and complacent waiting forever for pitches to be called, maybe you should ask a few. You might be enlightened.

TR-Bingo!

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Shanberg:
Thanks for the tip on the QB Wrist Coach. A couple weeks ago, we had an incident where the opposing team clearly had our signals and used it against us since we call all pitches and pickoffs "from the bucket."

I found the following article to be helpful and I think we will implement this next year.

http://www.collegiatebaseball.com/features/the_pick_proof.htm

Funny, I've never heard of this until a few days ago when I read this tread.

Then we had it used against us this weekend.

I guess it works, they beat us 9-0.

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:

I've sat in the stands....

That says it all.

LOL

It is IMO the coaches responsibility to control the pitches thrown and the defense they setup based on pitch and location.

RTGM,

Another clueless remark on your part. A little researh could have kept you from making such a statement, but it's clear that facts really don't enter into your thought process.

Maybe someone else can enlighten you.

quote:

most ML pitchers have complete control over shaking a pitch off or not.(Rookie pitchers normally do not shake a veteran catcher off.

One thing that caught my attention during the commentary with Orel Hershiser at the CWS, Is that he would never shake a pitch off.
He would just keep staring until the catcher called the pitch he wanted to throw, Then he would start his motion and the catcher would know what was coming.