quote:

Originally posted by willj1967:
TG, a couple questions re: my 11 yr old son who pitches. Should I consider annual x-rays of the shoulder growth plate as long as he continues to be a pitcher? Would I need a orthopaedic doctor for this or should our pediatrician be able to handle assessing the x-rays?

What is the value? Is it to detect damage? Or perhaps to be able to tell when he's finished growing, thereby knowing when he's old enough to take on a bit larger pitch load or weight lifting?

Thanks.
Jon

Just make sure that your son gets an annual exam and his pediatrician knows he pitches.
Children should not be subject to unnessary xrays unless it is necessary. JMO.
As posted in another thread, young players do not need to lift weights. My son didn't begin a weight lifting program until he entered HS at 15/16. Then it was only a light program. More core and legs than upper body. Tubing excercies for rotator cuff , being active or just tossing helps to build and strengthen muscles. Most importantly, young players should be taught good stretching techniques before they begin playing.

Thanks to both of you for your insights.

I am a bit concerned about workload. My son went to a pitching instructor when he was 8, not to learn to pitch, but to change his general throwing mechanics (he used to really throw open his front side and sling the ball 3/4 which put a lot of strain on his elbow playing catch or practicing).

In a way it's unfortunate that by seeing this instructor, he became the best pitcher on his 9u team and threw 60 innings that year. Another 60 for his 10u season and down to about 50 innings this year (we added another good pitcher which reduced his usage thank God). We're adding a couple more really good pitchers for next year and so I would expect his load will decrease a bit again which I'm happy about.

My real concern is with the tournaments. Pitchers get used on back-to-back days quite often (probably 7-8 weekends per year). What I see in my son is on the second day of back-to-back pitching days, about 50% of the time he's still really sharp with normal velocity. The other 50% of the time is velocity is noticeably down and his stamina is much shorter (and thus his pitch count limit the second day is lower). The good thing is he never threw more than 60 pitches in a day this year, and on tournament weekends he would be stopped at 40-45 if they planned to pitch him the next day.

I'm not sure if this experience is just normal tiredness or if it could lead to serious problems. So at the very least an annual Dr. checkup would be smart I think.

Thanks again for your help.
Jon

We had about 5 weeks off from the end of spring/summer season to fall ball. He's thrown maybe 4 innings in fall ball. Not too much. One inning in each of 4 games.

He looks fine and has regained his normal velocity with a low 60's fastball. Late in the spring/summer season he was topping out around 58 mph and cruising around 56 (and seemed to tire much more quickly).

Jon

quote:

Should I consider annual x-rays of the shoulder growth plate as long as he continues to be a pitcher? Would I need a orthopaedic doctor for this or should our pediatrician be able to handle assessing the x-rays?

A good sports Chiropractor can test your son to see if their are any concerns.
It is important that people get proper advice instead of relying on info on the internet.

I agree with BHD. He also posted some pretty good information from Dr. Andrews (the interview) which I think is important for parents to listen to, but I don't remember where he posted it. BHD if you can post it (the link) again, then readers can listen and draw their own conclusions.

This website is based upon opinions and information and when reading, it is always important to realize most of the information comes from parents, not necessarily professionals. Every situation is different, every young pitcher faces different challenges based upon certain factors that may or may not cause problems later on (ex. living in states where year round baseball exists). This is especially important when asking for any advice that involves medical issues.

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research.htm

This is the home page of ASMI. There is an abundance of info on their site.

Yes and be sure that he stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

quote:

Originally posted by sluggo:
Yes and be sure that he stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

TG, that's pretty similar to the calendar we follow for my son...

He had 5 weeks off between spring/fall ball.

He'll pitch approx. 8-10 innings in fall ball.

Fall ball ends late October, then he's off completely Nov 1 through mid-February.

He goes back to see his pitching instructor once/week starting mid-February through mid-March

Season opening tournament is in late March to start off the next spring season.

Jon

ASMI is a good guide but yes it doesn't fit all. It is a safe but not totally safe approach. Most of the guys I saw through the years were wy over their guide lines. My own son was not even close and would be in fall tryouts before his other team was even finished their season. He did get tired arm but never sore. It just was not as responsive as he liked. He always reverted to more CBs to take the load off. Yes he felt less stress on his arm with the CBs.
At 15 he was playing for 4 teams including an 18U district allstar team. He did pick and chose when he would pitch but he long tossed and warmed up in every game even in DHs where he was starting the 2nd game. If he didn't feel ready he would decline the start. That didn't happen often.
We all have anecdotal stories that prove what we believe. Up until Bantam the OBA teams had inning limits but the elite teams didn't. The one elite team would not allow him to pitch for another team except mid week.
he had gret coaches and medical care. He knew he could say no and was probably more paranoid about his arm than most.
last summer was the 1st time he didn't throw much and had a few weeks off. He enjoyed the time off but found it a little more difficult to get up to speed. We will see how it goes this spring.
I believe that people looking for a safe guide use ASMI. There is no correct guide that will 100% keep you from arm injury. You are going to excert force at some point and it could be just the right situation and you are injured. The quest to be a great pitcher will put you at risk at some point in your journey. There are very few pitchers in the pro ranks that have been totally free of injury regardless of preparation. The nature of the position requires you to go out and throw hard and fool batters. In most cases it is only a matter of time.

quote:

I've never worried about pitching workload. I've never allowed it to happen to excess. My son was a LL pitching stud. But when all-stars came around the team needed him to catch all the time. There were other stud pitchers. The all-star teams played into August. The 80+ innings he pitched in LL and 12U travel is the largest workload he's had. This past weekend made only the second season he's topped 50 innings. He'll probably pitch another 20

remember a catcher throws as much as the pitcher. more if he catches every game. 2nd in tjs. just something to be aware of. no pitch count for the work horses.

Catchers don't always have the time to set up a throw properly like a pitcher does.

tg
i was just adding to the asmi info.when we met Dr. Andrews he had stressed that the position is an abusive one on young arms. and most youth coaches have no problem letting a catcher catch and pitch in back to back games. but wouldn't let a pitcher do the same. the elbow doesn't know what position it throws from. just food for thought.

After any age pitcher has pitched significant innings or reached his pitch count, he should never play another position in the same game. Rest and recovery begins immediately after his last pitch and the next day should be a recovery day. Often you will see outfielders come into pitch an inning or two, he is warmed up already, that is not as damaging as going from pitcher to position player in the same game.

Have seen too many pitchers leave the mound to take another position immediately or next day catch, play third or ss.

All is takes is ONE time for the pitcher to be tired and continue playing. The damage sets in.