I have seen some very speacial looking players at 11-15 and only a few of them are playing at 18-21. It is a long developmental process and to say a kid at 11-12 is special doesn't mean a whole lot as many have pointed out. Very few stick with BB. One of the guys who inspired my son to switch from FB to BB was a very special kid. He plated no sports since his sesond year of HS. Most others had caught up and passed him by. Another was the MVP every year on my son's BB team. Fastest runner in the district, powerfull and very skilled. Same thing he has been surpased by so many he is in sports at all.
I think it is very important for peopl to be some what sckeptical when someone who is earning money off there son tells you that he is speacial at that age. Doesn't mean you shouldn/t do instructional stuff but at that age it isn't necesaary.
It takes a very short time to teach the basics and after that it is practice. My son took 3 hour lessons and that was all he needed. His AAA team gave instruction on fielding,throwing etc and that was all he needed. Spend your money if you have to but just realize that at that age it is sure not necessary.

CDAD

quote:

For sake of discussion, I disagree with njbb and Fungo. I have no doubts either of you could see talent in your kids at a young age but consider..In my experience, parents were more often than not poor judges of talent

I will agree with Fungo and njbb on this one. You can tell early on, and each step up along the way. If a kid keeps performing well consistently, or dominating the competition in his age group initially, then again when he plays "up" a couple years and still looks like the best player out there, everybody sees it, and the parent doesn't have to say a word.

People with good baseball acumen also know to dismiss the "big kid who grew faster than everybody" type player...........those are the ones the kids catch up to eventually.

I agree a parent remains humble and relatively quiet early on, but as the player gets closer to college age, they need to be involved in the marketing aspect. Not necessarily "hype". Field successes by the player will generate that to a certain point.

Every year HS kids get drafted and get huge bonuses, and their names appear on numerous lists, publications, websites, and about every other media outlet for a couple years in advance of their MLB draft year. Common sense says their are forces at work that generate this publicity above and beyond the field of play. They are all talented players, but represent a miniscule portion of the entire talent pool nationally.

What separated them from the rest ?

Who was behind the machine ?

Why do 1st rounders fail ?

CD mentioned "develop a love in the game with the child" and let the deciders make the evaluation. I agree to a certain age, then later on a more proactive approach is needed. I think many on this site have advised that just sitting back and waiting is NOT the road to take as far a playing past high school.

I can accurately say that I was the coal shoveler on our train, not the engineer. Never thought of dragging the kid across the USA at age 11 for exposure, no showcases at age 13 to get on lists, actually no showcases at all, and the transistion from local travel to Premier travel didn't occur until after 2 varsity seasons and the conclusion of the sophomore year.

After that, I was asked by the engineer to start shoveling faster.............LOL

That being said, the only advice from personal experience I can give is this. Play the kid up in age a year or two, and you will get a better idea of his abilities.

boblehead
maybe i should clarify. the special players i have seen at 11 or 12 were also special in hs,and in college, a couple in pro ball. some didn't have the grades and fell by the wayside.but not many.i guess i have 20/20 hindsight. but those players were special at 12. but as someone pointed out stevie wonder could see that.

quote:

JakeP --- You say there is no way to evaluate talent at a young age and then you do a 180 and ask for a video clip of his swing so you can evaluate him
Fungo

Two things... I agree with your post - talent is relative. Where that talent leads them is anpother thing.
Second... It would interesting to see what he sees as talent.

When I first started coaching I had a player who I felt was the one. His talent was heads and shoulders above everyone else. He pitched, hit, played SS better than any kid I ever saw. He went on to become one of the best junior players in New England and became a great D1 player... in golf.

A couple things I would say is that you don't have to be the best player on the team. My son's teammate is on the Pirates 40 man roster and he was 3 years older. He was in the top 3 and he was playing District 18U at 15. The coaches told us he was wasting his talent to play at his own age level. His 1st game was a 12 K complete game win. Yes he was dominant against the best players in the 8 districts in Ontario. We took every game 1 at a time. I think when your son reaches 15-16 is when you can start to see him as a BB player. There are still lots of obsticals ahead. My son was devoted to BB forgoing girl friends and parties etc. At 21 he has the girl friend and he said it was worth waiting for the right one. He just told me and her he wasn't interested in wasting his time. I was shocked when I found out he actually perued her.
There are so many obsticals that you should devote your time to getting better and just hope that at 15-16 they still have the passion and skill to play on. People are way to vulnerable to wasting money on a dream that may be a flash in the pan. We didn't showcase and turned down some great opportunities but have no regrets.

I have to agree with Fungo and njbb on this one.

Very often you will see among the 15-16 players on a team one or two that will stand out and I agree that they don't have to be the best player on the team. At 11, that might mean they stand out because they approach the mental game differently, are athletic, more competitive, work harder than others to achieve, not necessarily because they can hit or pitch better (they may not because of their physical maturity). It's up to those who have that "it" to make of it as they mature. And because they have "it" doesn't mean it is going to end up with baseball. I am not a coach, but am able to find those on a young team that have "it".

At 11 alot of peole told us that son would most likely head to a D1 and pro ball. We said thank you and didn't put too much meaning into it that was our decsion to do what we felt would benefit him as he matured, no matter who said it. We stayed away from those who said he needed lessons to get better. We didn't drag him to showcases early to show off the "it". We waited until he was mature enough to realize it for himself (HS) and then it was up to him to put the "it" to work. It's not up to us, but him. That's how we approached it, that doesn't mean that's the correct way.

JMO.

This thread is a close relative of the one that asked "how do you know if your kid is really good?"

We all wonder this at various times, and to be sure there are things that give us hints. But in the final analysis, until he's succeeding at the next level, do we really know?

Nope - and that is why I try not to worry about it. I just take TPM's advice: have fun watching him play and the rest will work itself out one way or another.

njbb: Although I am against predicting young player's future, I have one very unique way to tell if he got "it".

Watch his neck first , then see how he use his body strenghth and how fast his bat speed is. This is my way to pick a young player out of all those players who have good fundamentals.

If he is lucky enough to grow to 5'10" 180lb and above after puberty, he will have a very good chance to play in the D1.

Why do I pick players this way? Because you need power to play baseball, both batting and pitching.
The kids with strong neck usually have more inner power than those pencil-neck kids. Strong neck Kids who have faster bat speed with average body size usually know how to explore their inner power and use their body strength to the maximum. If these kids have good hand and eye coordination, they could be the D1 sluggers. If they have good arms, they could probably be the good D1 pitchers. This is the way I identify the talents.

But have talents is one thing and become successful is another, even if you were picked to be the "one", you still need the love of the game, the hard work and the good luck to be successful.

JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by coachbwww:
njbb: Although I am against predicting young player's future, I have one very unique way to tell if he got "it".

Watch his neck first , then see how he use his body strenghth and how fast his bat speed is. This is my way to pick a young player out of all those players who have good fundamentals.

If he is lucky enough to grow to 5'10" 180lb and above after puberty, he will have a very good chance to play in the D1.

Why do I pick players this way? Because you need power to play baseball, both batting and pitching.
The kids with strong neck usually have more inner power than those pencil-neck kids. Strong neck Kids who have faster bat speed with average body size usually know how to explore their inner power and use their body strength to the maximum. If these kids have good hand and eye coordination, they could be a D1 slugger. If they have good arms, they could probably be a good D1 pitcher. This is the way I identify the talents.

But have talents is one thing and become successful is another, even if you were picked to be the "one", you still need the love of the game, the hard work and the good luck to be successful.

JMHO

Say what?

Hi, JakeP: What's your opinion on my last post?
Instead of asking for a video clip of his swing , I would rather ask for a video clip of his neck, crazy? You think?

quote:

Originally posted by coachbwww:
Hi, JakeP: What's your opinion on my last post?
Instead of asking for a video clip of his swing , I would rather ask for a video clip of his neck, crazy? You think?

Unless you can point to research of which I am unaware, I think the above is a little crazy.

PS: I asked for the clip to see what the dad/coach sees as "the one."

Thanks, Jake. I learned this trick from a very good friend who is a famous Gymnastic coach. One of his player won the national championship at age 15. That's the way they pick their players from 7-12 year old. You know Gymnastic players usually have very short career. They usually prime at 15-17 year old and retire at age 22 or under. Thus, to pick the right one at very young age is very important for their team success.

Maybe this will help njbb's case of evaluating kids under 12.

Fungo,
I don't believe you can always see talent that early. A friend of mine didn't start playing organized ball until he was 13yo. When I got in touch with him last year he reminded me that he had hit .121 that season. He also got his nose broken during the last game of the season when the coach let him play shortstop. You couldn't see the talent, but you could see the desire. The fact was that he probably never had the talent to get that far.

Later on I was telling him a story about how I thought I threw like Seaver and then when I saw myself on video I threw like Sutton. He said, yeah, he ran into Sutton during spring training with the Astros. He never made it past AAA but how many can say they got that far?

Can you see talent at age 11? Yes without a doubt. There will be some kids who are just naturally better on the field especially when you compare them to the other kids on the field.

Can you project talent at age 11? Not with any real amount of accuracy. If you look at a kid at 11 years old and say "He is going to make it" and he does - it was probably more due to luck than any ability to judge talent at that age.

We all have stories where "Little Johnny" was the best player in Little League and his future was before him. He could go do some special things. Next thing you know "Little Johnny" has more interest in girls, getting a job, cars, other sports, studies and sadly drugs / alcohol.

We all have stories (probably less though) of "Little Bobby" who was the last pick in Little League and cut in high school his freshman and sophomore years but hit a growth spurt before Junior year and ended up going big time.

Projecting talent is an art and not a science. That's why not everyone is hired to be a scout for a pro team. Those guys KNOW talent and are paid to find it. But even they miss out on occasion and that is when they pick from mature teenagers and not 11 year old boys.

Now for the original post - I think it's great that the poster (sorry forgot his name) is taking what is said with a grain of salt. He should be based on what I just put above.

Look just be patient and help your son keep a level head. Don't let him buy into the "you will probably be a such and such one day. It will probably make him lazy. He is young and it will be a while before he has to make any real choices about his baseball career. Remember nobody was ever drafted out of 7th grade.

Wait for him to get a little older and have him start going to showcases and college camps. Keep him on a good travel team and high school team. That is where you find the best players. If your son in his teenage years competes or is better than these guys then he has a shot. If not then might want to consider another sport.

If you say "Little Johnny" will be a high draft pick when he is older at age 11 and he only ends up at a small NAIA school - he is now a failure. He failed to live up to others expectations. It doesn't matter that he got a college education and played the sport he loves for four years - that doesn't matter. He was picked to go big time and he failed.

Let kids succeed at their own pace - don't force them into failure.

This is a great discussion. Many different perspectives. I also appreciate the fact that Cleveland Dad only disagrees with me for "sake of discussion".

There is no doubt in my mind that I saw talent at a very young age in my son. Like Rob Kremmer suggest that some get lucky, I did question whether or not I was guilty of “thinking” just like every other parent with rose colored glasses and I was the one in a thousand that got lucky and his development fulfilled my dreams ----- but this was not my first son that played sports nor was I caught up in baseball ---- Unlike many parents of young baseball players I was not thrilled at first that he would devote his time to athletics. I wanted him to hunt and fish with me. I bought him a youth model 870 Remington 20 gauge and a youth model Browing bow only to see them gather dust. He fired the shotgun one time on Christmas day and he said said it hurt his ears. And he ----well he had visions of being a professional basketball player.
CD said:

quote:

People can always look back and say they knew all along

That's true but most parents proclaim it from the beginning. I know I did (but I wasn't real vocal about it).

On a side note about hype. We talk about the negative effects of hype and how to “ignore” it but hype has to be the one thing that parents want the most. I admit I liked all the hype that surrounded my son. Hype is the beautiful seducer. On one hand it validates the player (and the parents) and puts them in the spotlight and on the other hand it triggers an emotion that makes parents loose their sense of reality. Hype is all over youth baseball and even on every page of the HSBBW. Enjoy it, appreciate it, but beware of it too.
Fungo

Fungo - thanks for your take! I still disagree

Hype is harmful to a player imho. I believe Casey Stengel harmed Mickey Mantle initially by hyping him to the NY media. I believe Eli Manning has been harmed by hype. I think there are lots of examples. I believe it affected Roger Maris' health. Terrell Owens has made himself the fool. On the other hand, some athletes seem to relish in it. Muhamed Ali might be the greatest example of all time. One thing about him though, he can no longer speak. I wonder if the HYPE and his enormous ego caused him to take one too many blows to the head?

Hype is like making a deal with the devil. It may feel good but you never know what you are giving up and like Ali you have to pay him back sooner or later. I would rather pleasantly surprise a scout or a fan than let him down because I didn't live up to the hype. At the bare minimum, let someone else do the hyping, we all know parents love their kids.

I understand that when you are on a job interview that you are required to "hype" yourself in a certain sense (perhaps Ali understood this better than most). Employers expect that but what you tell them better be the truth. Ball players interview for a job when they run, throw, catch, and hit. Trying to hype what has just occurred on the field only diminshes the accomplishment imho. Reasonable minds can disagree on that obviously

Just thought of a great example that is the anti-Ali - Barry Sanders. Here is a guy who let his play do all the talking and retired in the prime of his career under his own terms. None of the media could ever figure that guy out. For me it was simple. There were more important things to Sanders than fame. He is much more of a role model than Ali imho. I am sure there are many (perhaps most) who would disagree with me on that however.

Alex Rodriguez may be the game's best player but even he may have been harmed by hype. Why exactly can't he hit in the post-season? His salary alone is 1/2 the Indians entire payroll. According to the rules of hype, the Yankees should have whupped the Indians this past October. Why didn't the hype make that outcome occur

another question. what is hype? is it being written about and talked about because your the best LL in town? is it the same in hs,because you've put up great numbers? is being an all american in college?
that stuff is true at the time but is it hype. it makes parents feel good,makes the kids feel good. but it doesn't meen your special,it diesn't meen you have IT. and it doesn't meen your going to be a great player. but you are good today, in your arena. and soak it in because it may not last,but it is a chest pump for mom and dad.today.

quote:

Originally posted by RonBon:

So we are curious how others handled this and what advise anyone would have for parents in this situation. We don't want to short change our kid but we think it is important to stay grounded and live in the "real world".

P.S. Our son is not aware of any of the comments.

I think most likely you along with many other parentsof 11 year olds think that your son has talent or you would not have taken him for lessons. I also agree that many trained professionals may see some things in youngters that their parents don't (good and bad) and you have made a first step early in stating you want to stay grounded and live in the real world. I also agree that it is hard to predict the future on a player based on being 11. You may not think he shows ability, but maybe his desire to learn, learn quickly, competitiveness, attitude, leadership seperates him from other 11 year olds before his physical abilites and skills have at this time.
It may very well be we are talking to a parent of a future D1 player or proball player, so therefore we as parents can only give our advice from those that have been through the process and learned to deal with the "hype". I think that you have a good attitude, and it's important to pass that onto your player as he matures. You also realize at 11, he has a long way to go and IMO, that's great. I know some parents that would have taken what was said to them and run with it (see below).

There is nothing you can do about how others perceive the future ability of your son. As a parent, your responsibility is to protect him from those that may take advantage of his ability and keep him healthy. An example, I know of a lot of players that at 11,12 showed tremendous future ability, a standouts wherever they went. Unfortunetly the parents played into that early and over the years had their players playing on multiple teams as multple position players. By the time they reached HS, most were plagued with injuries and surgeries which caused setbacks, and I do beleive this was a big reason why some are now not playing or never lived up to the "hype" that they would be professional ballplayers someday.
Let your son enjoy being 11 as well as let him enjoy being 17 later on. Teach him humility and to be gracious. As long as you have identified that in sports there is good, bad and questionable "hype" you are one step ahead of the game.
JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by RonBon:
What advise would you have for a Mom and Dad who get told by multiple "baseball" people that your son has a special gift and a bright baseball future but the parents just don't see that he is any more "special" than any other kids he plays select ball with?

Quite simply, there are very few baseball players that seriously attract the attention of top colleges or pro scouts before they are 16. Period. So if THEY do not know before that age....how can an instructor possibly know?

When someone is puffing up your player to you....CONSIDER THE SOURCE. If a guy is praising your kid while sticking his hand into your wallet....well, you should take pause.

There are many good instructors out there but many bad ones as well. Some need little Johnny to keep coming back so the instructor can pay his bills. Another easy pitfall is the ex-pro that gets into instructing kids based upon his name and playing background. In my experience, these have often been some of the worst at teaching. I don't want to paint all with these broad strokes but strongly suggest that you DO SOME HOMEWORK.

Find out about any person that you intend to pay for lessons. Ask the instructor for the number of some of his most successful students and also for a couple that quit coming to him. Anybody worth their salt should not have a problem furnishing these or fault you for educating yourself.

....also beware the select coach that comes to a 10 year-old game with a radar gun looking for the next Nolan Ryan. This is trouble with a capital T.