Just a thought that has been running around my little brain the past few weeks. I notice that when people talk of the advantages of HS they often use the same reasoning as rec ball. Playing for your town, playing with your friends, etc. I am just wondering if HS baseball is evolving to this. Do any of you who have kids that play on high end travel and HS notice a difference in ability? Are there kids who start on varsity HS who wouldn't make your travel team? I am 100% into playing for the local HS but I seem to be seeing a trend in thinking and posts on this and other boards that the reasoning behind HS versus travel is very similar to the arguments for/against rec versus travel on the youth side.

They seem very similar to me and when that happens it makes me wonder if we are heading in that direction. Everybody played rec ball as kids, but now, travel is taking away a lot of the talent.
Is this just a youth trend or could it be the future of all baseball?

For that matter, take away the education and money aspect and you have the same arguments for/against college versus MiLB.

My two cents.

This is only my observation - not intended to cause a uproar--I can only speak for our school & our travel ball. Our High School coach wants his players playing the most competitive ball possible in the summer and fall. As well as weight training and throwing. Our Travel Coaches want our boys playing High School ball. In our area the travel ball doesn't start up for HS guys until HS ball is all but over.

So that said it seems that High School baseball competition is stepping up, do to so many coaches wanting their players playing at the travel ball/prospect level. Limited spots available on a High school team makes it difficult for rec level players in our area to make the High School team.

I think it depends on the pool of players that a HS attracts. A typical HS (~2,400 kids)in our area attracts kids from 4 leagues (or more) so the starters on the Varsity team would play on any travel ball team in the country. (except maybe for a few "elite teams") Our summer HS team played in one tournament and beat all of the travel teams we played soundly. So in one sense just because you play on a travel team does not mean you are better than the next player.

If you lived in an outlying area that has a smaller pool of players to draw from then this would probably not be the case.

I don't see baseball going the way of s*o*cc*e*r where the HS team is not as important as the travel team. It is simply too popular at the HS level, whereas many don't care about the "s" sport. (at least here in the US)

That said playing for some kind of travel/scout team has become more important for kids to be seen at the next level. (as well as the whole show case phenomena)

Why is it posted here in Pre High School?

Did I miss something?

My bad Skeep. I am usually on the pre HS side and it was the youth BB thinking that got my attention. I don't think it really matters which place it is at. If it is a big deal I am sure a moderater will move it(or delete it).

Plus, I don't think this trend will have any effect on kids that are already in HS. I think it will only affect the up and comers.

quote:

Are there kids who start on varsity HS who wouldn't make your travel team?

Yes. 2B goes to a small 3A school that only gets the 3A designation because they count the middle schoolers. Not a very big talent pool. During the fall and summer seasons, when a lot of the better players are playing basketball or football or doing other things, it is very much to me like rec ball. Kind of laid back and slow. But to me summer and fall are the times to let younger guys play without the pressure of the regular season, so that's fine. It's just really hard to make the transition from a tournament like East Cobb or the USA Baseball 16U championships to an area HS summer game. Each has its purpose, but it's a different ball game.

quote:

Do any of you who have kids that play on high end travel and HS notice a difference in ability?

Yes, but the travel team that he plays on combines the best in the area - he is the only one at the 16U level from his school, and there is one at the 18U level. Players come from big schools and small. It is the talent and the speed of the game that makes the travel team so much fun.

In the spring season, though, it's totally different. Even if the HS talent level might not be the same as the travel team at all positions, the intensity and the will to win and "represent" for your school is definitely there. Wearing the jersey to school on game days, having teachers and administrators see their students perform well on the field, and competing against other area schools (some of whom have your travel teammates on them) - it's great. We were actually district runner up last year with 3 freshman starters, and the district tournament games were a blast. It's a different kind of intensity than travel ball, and in some ways more fun. I hope you enjoy it.

Thanks for your input 2BMom. Your reasoning for HS ball sounds just like the reasoning that I hear for Rec ball. It is more fun, its great to represent your school and community, and play with your freinds, but the quality of play isn't quite as high as the travel ball.

It just sounds exactly like someone describing LL to me.

And people are leaving rec ball to play higher level youth travel. I just wonder if in the near future that will also happen in HS.

It just sounds eerily similar and the people that are leaving rec to play travel are the same people that are going to be in HS some day.

Just weird I guess.

Thanks, Doughnutman. There is one difference that I didn't mention. I think high school coaches lives are much easier if they win. Most of the time, the best nine are going to be out there, so the daddyball factor, while it may be still present at times, isn't as much of a factor. At least that has been the case from our experience. There are always accusations of favoritism from parents whose players don't get much playing time, or didn't make varsity, or whatever, but in most cases, the HS coach is going to try to get the guys on the field who are going to give him the best chance of winning. Rec ball around here is mostly a celebration of mediocrity. We tried it when we first moved here, and it wasn't a good experience for us - were pretty much told not to come back and so found a travel team instead. On the other hand, HS welcomes good players.

High School aged kids do not play travel ball during the High School season. They are all playing High School baseball. When a freshman comes into High School baseball for the first time in his life he is playing against and with players that are alot older and alot more mature both physically and mentally than he is. No matter how talented he may be the fact is a 14 or 15 year old will be challenged when playing against and with 18 and 19 year olds.

There is no High School team as talented as the top tier showcase teams. My sons Showcase team had every player on it go on to play at the D1 level with most going to ACC schools the rest to SEC and two to Conf USA. So yes his showcase team was better than the High School team. But the High School team plays in the spring and the showcase teams play in the summer and fall.

The High School experience is one of changes as you get older as far as the baseball goes. If you are a talented player you will be above the grade as a JV player in most cases but very challenged by the Varsity level of play. Even if you are very talented because 18 and 19 year kids are just stronger and baseball smarter. As a soph you will continue to be challenged the gap begins to shorten. As a Jr and Sr if you are a top tier player you start to dominate the game. But you learn how to step up into a leadership role for your team and learn how to handle the pressure of being relied on to help carry your team in certain situations.

Are showcase teams more talented? Of course only the top players are invited to play on these teams. But there are things learned as a baseball player playing High School baseball that can not be learned by playing showcase baseball solely. Its a baseball experience that is critical in the development of a baseball player imo.

High School baseball is not going anywhere. Some people think that playing in High School is a step down for them and they need to play showcase baseball all the time. Again no showcase teams are playing at the High School age during the High School season. High School baseball is a great time of a young mans life. Its a lot more competitive for younger guys playing against older players. Its part of the process that can not be ignore or just blown off.

I hear what you are saying Coach May. But it wasn't too long ago that youth travel teams never played during the LL season and that has certainly changed. They were only used to improve and get better for the LL season. Not to skip it.

Part of my job is looking for trends and trying to prepare my company for the changes that are coming. I see everything in patterns and trends so when I saw this pattern of reasoning I wondered if this is coming in the near future. Thanks for the info.

College coaches are coaching during the spring. Top tier High School players are not going to skip High School baseball for many reasons. #1 They enjoy the experience of playing for the team and not playing to be seen. They get a little tired of this in the summer and fall to be quite honest with you. #2 They know its an important aspect of their baseball development. #3 They want to play for their school , home town and with life long friends. #4 They want to be scouted by the pro scouts their sr year leading up to the pro draft in June. And there are many more reasons.

The Showcase team Coaches are not going to step on the toes of the High School coaches by putting anything out there that directly conflicts with the high school season. Plus college coaches are not going to be scouting any showcase teams during this time of the year because they are playing themselves.

The bottom line is when you reach the high school age , its about playing high school baseball during this time of the year. The summer and fall will belong to Showcase , Legion etc.

I'll try to keep this to a travel v. rec standpoint rather than the rah, rah aspects of playing school ball.

The term "rec ball" tends to be used on boards as a negative term. It tends to mean players who aren't talented. High school players are talented. Obviously, like rec ball, the high school is confined in it's talent search by boundaries (in most areas) and therefore isn't the level of travel ball.

From a recruiting standpoint showcases are becoming more important than high school teams. It's easier to see more talent at showcases in a shorter period of time. Except football, this is the direction recruiting has moved.

But travel teams do not play in the spring. It's summer ball. Playing on the high school team demonstrates a player can balance academics and athletics. I'll bet any college coach would want to know why a prospect passed on high school ball. Dissing the talent level would not be a good answer to demonstrate proper attitude.

My daughter played high school and travel softball. I believe she was very emotionally committed to both. The five seniors played school ball together for six years (ms & hs) and with and against each other going back to 7/8 rec ball. You don't get that sense of attachment to travel teammates.

First off Coach May, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and I respect your opinion on things HS. Greatly. I have read everything you have ever posted on this site.

My emphasis is on possibilities. All of your reasons make a lot of sense right now but things change. Showcases haven't been around that long. There are already HS aged leagues and tournaments for kids who didn't make their HS team due to ability, training, or grades. You see it in s****r and somewhat in basketball now where the HS season is skipped or it doesn't mean much. Kids are focusing on one sport at age 10. Things have really changed in the last 15 years or so.

Right now there are coaches who have problems with kids playing fall or summer ball anywhere but in their programs.
There is a generation of kids and parents who skip LL to play travel now when that was unheard of not too long ago. I guess I will just have to wait to see the changes in the future along with everyone else.
It's just that most of the reasons to stay in HS ball are very similar to the reasons people use to stay in rec ball at the young ages. And people are leaving rec ball by the team.
I hope it doesn't change. But the one constant in life is change.

quote:

Originally posted by 2Bmom:… In the spring season, though, it's totally different. Even if the HS talent level might not be the same as the travel team at all positions, the intensity and the will to win and "represent" for your school is definitely there. Wearing the jersey to school on game days, having teachers and administrators see their students perform well on the field, and competing against other area schools (some of whom have your travel teammates on them) - it's great. We were actually district runner up last year with 3 freshman starters, and the district tournament games were a blast. It's a different kind of intensity than travel ball, and in some ways more fun. I hope you enjoy it.

What you’re describing is COMPETITIVENESS! People can call TB competitive, but all that means is general skill level of the teams is higher than the general skill level of HS teams. But, its very seldom that you’ll see a TB team get all excited over playing another team they’ve never seen before, because there’s no “connection”.

I forgot to mention on the showcase front. Whats to stop a showcase from throwing a Pro only showcase during the season for kids that don't have the grades to play in HS and can't go to college or maybe left college but want to play pro ball. Scouts only. I would think that most showcase coaches would consider that a favor for the kids. It would start off slow but then you never know.

Just a scenario to see how it could start off.

RJM,
I don't consider rec to be bad baseball. It is just that when I hear someone describing HS baseball it sounds just like someone describing rec ball. All of the same reasons are used. The similar descriptions just made me think of the possibilities and if we are going to see the same changes in HS as we are seeing in youth baseball today. I certainly don't want to start an argument with anyone. Just throwing out possibilities and seeing if anybody else has any ideas on the subject.

I definitely don't feel strongly on the matter either way.

So far with the kids I know or know of, I've only heard of s****r, tennis and swimming being sports where some kids have been told to only compete for their club team.

I know a 14yo who wonders why kids play high school baseball, hopefully he'll get his answer next spring...

In this area there is a disturbing trend. Due to the budget crunch, many high school teams are having to resort to function like a travel team. In Volusia County, the high school baseball teams have to pay a facility use fee to the school board to play on their own field at their own school. Some h.s. sports are not being funded at all!