How do you instruct your runner at third base to lead off and return?

In foul territory. Right left right turn towards the pitcher. When the pitcher goes home shuffle shuffle read. If the ball is caught bust back in fair territory. If its a passed ball read it. Your right foot should be planting as the ball enters the mitt.

Is this when the pitcher is in the windup, the set, or both?

Not so surprisingly, I teach it the same way as Coach May. Make sure the runner keeps his shoulders parallel to the baseline as the bal is received by the C.

I'll make it unanimous with Coach May and Redbird. That's how I teach it as well. Make sure the batter helps with passed balls. The hardest ball to read is the one that is going directly away from the runner. Imagine the 3B line extending through the plate to the fence in foul line. When the ball is rolling away in that direction it's sometimes hard to tell how far and speed it's rolling. The batter helps out a lot here.

The runner at 3B should never really come to a stop. He should work down and back in a skinny circle - that gets you down foul and back fair.

Lead in Foul, return in fair.

I also try to get my runners to learn to read the pitcher and where the 3rd baseman is....I also like them to time their secondary lead, so that as the pitch gets to the plate, their feet are still moving to the plate, so if the ball does get past the catcher they have momentum on their side.

The problem with that technique is if they are still moving towards the plate when the catcher catches the baseball they are very at risk to say the least at getting picked. Its no different than a runner at first getting a secondary lead and hanging out after the pitch is caught. A good catcher with a good arm will hose you and should.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
The problem with that technique is if they are still moving towards the plate when the catcher catches the baseball they are very at risk to say the least at getting picked. Its no different than a runner at first getting a secondary lead and hanging out after the pitch is caught. A good catcher with a good arm will hose you and should.

then obviously I worded that wrong..I plead not enough coffee. What I tell my guys is I want the LAST step of their secondary lead to hit the ground when the ball hits the mitt...

One thing I see a lot that drives me crazy is kids at lower levels (say 13-16 or so) who want to take running leads at 3B (presumably to distract the pitcher) but when the ball arrives in the hitting zone they are already retreating towards 3B because their lead is huge. I don't teach them to be going towards the plate necessarily, but to get a secondary and have their weight on the balls of their feet so they can go home aggressively or return to third aggressively if needed. But I constantly find myself explaining to them that having to retreat towards 3B before the ball reaches the hitting zone is pretty pointless.

I would be having my pitchers picking your runners on that walking lead thing.

How far do you guys want the runner off the bag when

1) The pitcher has come set (windup included - I treat them the same)

2) When the ball has reached the plate area

For me I want them to be about 3 average steps off the bag when the pitcher has come set.

The plate area depends on several factors - speed of runner, catcher's arm, count, outs etc... but on average probably around 20 feet or so. If they are doing the down foul back fair skinny circle plus planting right foot on the mitt then they should get back all things considered.

Also, unless we got contact on - any groundball at them they have to come back hard on foul side. Trying to avoid the tag.

quote:

Originally posted by Daque:
I would be having my pitchers picking your runners on that walking lead thing.

Which walking lead?

quote:

Right left right turn towards the pitcher.

(Coach May)

This, or any.

The primary lead at 3B is taken the same way as 1b or 2B. Right, left, shuffle, shuffle.

It is not a walking lead...it is the secondary lead, as the pitcher delivers the ball to the plate. Right...left...right (last right hits as ball enters hitting zone).

I have done this since I played in college (as did my entire team). As a matter of fact, almost all college teams teach this. I have yet to have a baseruner picked off 3B using this method.

Thanks redbird5.

coach2709 pretty much exactly what we teach.

In high school as you guys know you run across so many short backstops that a passed ball does not mean an automatic run. So yoiu have to add in the backstop factor. My pet peeve is guys getting so much at 3b that they are breaking back before the ball is stopped in fear they might get thrown out. Then the ball does kick away in an area they could have scored but they have broken back before they actually could read it.

Make the baseball stop you and then bust back. Get a lead that allows you to read and react instead of reacting before you can read.

I must be missing something here so please clarify for me. Folks state that the lead off remains the same whether the pitcher is in the wind up or the set position. They then talk about primary and secondary leads.

My question is why would a runner take a secondary lead with the pitcher in the wind up when he could have more momentum with a run from the bag and attain the desired distance once the pitcher is committed?

Daque I think we might be saying the same thing but using different words. I hope so anyway.

As for myself I don't teach primary and secondary leads from third because I don't see it that way but others might. Not a big deal.

When the pitcher comes set (or has started the rocking motion in windup) I want my guys to be about three steps off the bag facing the pitcher. I think others might call this a primary lead but your only about 5 - 6 feet off the bag in foul territory.

Once the pitcher has committed to the plate then he works down the line. He's not going to be completely open to the plate with his shoulders but about halfway. By doing this he can go in two directions - plate or third - quickly.

He works down the line until the ball reaches the plate area. At that point his right foot should be hitting the ground and make a judgement right away on what to do

1) come back to third
2) continue when ball gets away
3) come back foul on groundball at them (no contact)
4) continue on groundball to other IF basehit
5) come back on flyball

I said in a post above that the runner never stops on his skinny circle. Once that right foot plants then he needs to make one of the decisions mentioned above.

I think it was Coach May (I apologize if it was someone else) who said the ball should stop the runner and I agree completely. In fact that is what I teach about all baserunning - you are going until the ball stops you. Only time a base coach makes a decision for them is when they cannot see the ball. At third they should be able to see the ball the whole time and make decisions.

This is why the batter is important to help on that tricky ball moving away from the runner or if there is any doubt they work their way back to third. It might mean we missed a chance to score on a loose ball but that's ok because we still got him at third. Another loose ball or basehit or sacrifice will score him.

Hope this clears it up some as to what I was talking about.

coach2709: Yes, your explanation clarified your position. But it raised one small question as well in the quote cited below when you said, in part:

"4) continue on groundball to other IF basehit"

My confusion comes with the word, "IF." Did you mean IF as in infielder or did you mean if IF as in conditionally?

My apologies Daque - I do mean IF as infielders and should have put an "or" in there as well.

It should read "continue on groundball to other IF or basehit".