quote:

I'm talking about teams coached by pro scouts, ex-pro players, college coaches, and elite high school coaches. Not just dads putting together a team. That is the problem with this debate is we are talking two totally different things.

You didn't look very hard. For what it's worth at the younger ages, it's all over the place. At the high school ages it's valuable.

Our coaching staff is all dads. But it's all dads who played college and/or pro ball. The kids are getting coaching for a few hundred dollars a season. The academies charge a couple thousand. I guess the mistake is we're giving it away.

Personally, I've been a paid coach on an 18U team. I donated all the money to charity. I've recently been asked to teach hitting at a baseball academy.

Two other coach/dads have recently taken part time jobs at a baseball academy in exchange for sponsoring our team. The other coach is a high school coach.

quote:

I know my 9th grader who has played on one of the top 10 teams in USSSA growing up is not intimidated by any pitcher in our district. Many of the players off of that team will play and most will pitch on their varsity teams and it is because of the travel ball.

Mine is the same way. I credit playing two years of USSSA ball atn thirteen and fourteen, including playing up a year last fall. I don't credit the USSSA ball he played at 11U and 12U around his LL schedule on the small field.

I believe facing the better pitchers in Sunday elimination games is why he went 3-5 and two walks in a 16U JV prep summer league game as a 5'2" thirteen year old. He said the pitching wasn't much more challenging than the top 13U pitchers, who were six feet and throwing eighty.

I don't give credit to anything he did before the 60/90 field )either LL or USSSA), other than developing fundamentals, a passion for the game and the confidence he can compete.

quote:

a broad brush across kiddie travel ball because of it's common chracteristics, those characteristics being overzealous parents and uneducated coaches.

We have the academies taking big bucks (2K) from the 8U to 12U parents. When we have a break in the tournament I love watching the parents at the 8U to 10U tournaments. One dad told me his son is going to play major college ball because of the academy that trains his son. The academy gets some of their players to D1. Many don't.

When my son was nine I was approached by a s****r academy. Part of the pitch was "all our athletes play college ball." The guy choked when I asked, "What percentage of the ten year olds are still around to play on the U18 team?"

If a parent is gullible sports academies have become a huge scam. Remember when having potential to play college sports was about being an excellent high school player, not some little kid who's parents have a dream?

No, to many of you I am not coaching the team. I am helping with practices since I have coached high school and elite travel ball and showcase ball. I decided with this one that I would get out of it early. I coached his machine pitch last year when he was 6. I have not coached my older two sons since they were 12 and 14.

Some of you named pro teams. That is not travel ball. I am talking 17U or maybe 18U and those that fall below. Look at the USSSA site and tell me how many teams in the Northeast are ranked in the top 50 at any age group. Very few. How many played in the World Wood Bat or competed after the first round in the wood bat tournaments for 15, 16, 17 or 18U. Or how many players from the Northeast are ranked by Perfect Game in the top 20 players.

There is a difference between travel ball in the Northeast and other places. I am not talking talent. You guys, especially two of you, make a point and then when someone disagrees you go in another direction quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

I'm talking about teams coached by pro scouts, ex-pro players, college coaches, and elite high school coaches. Not just dads putting together a team. That is the problem with this debate is we are talking two totally different things.

You didn't look very hard. For what it's worth at the younger ages, it's all over the place. At the high school ages it's valuable.

Our coaching staff is all dads. But it's all dads who played college and/or pro ball. The kids are getting coaching for a few hundred dollars a season. The academies charge a couple thousand. I guess the mistake is we're giving it away.

Personally, I've been a paid coach on an 18U team. I donated all the money to charity. I've recently been asked to teach hitting at a baseball academy.

Two other coach/dads have recently taken part time jobs at a baseball academy in exchange for sponsoring our team. The other coach is a high school coach.

I didn't question your team. Why are you questioning mine. You were the attacker and assumed that because of what we were doing we were daddy ball.

quote:

I didn't question your team.

Of course you didn't. You just called them teams coached by dads, not baseball people who know what they're doing.

quote:

Look at the USSSA site and tell me how many teams in the Northeast are ranked in the top 50 at any age group. Very few.

Please explain to me what this has to do with development of the individual player. I guess the 5th selection in the draft (Brewersw) a few years ago who didn't even play USSSA should give back his bonus and give up. Somehow he brought it 97mph without playing USSSA. Would he have thrown 102 if he played USSSA? You're confusing teams with the development of individual talent.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

I didn't question your team.

Of course you didn't. You just called them teams coached by dads, not baseball people who know what they're doing.

There is a difference between teams coached by dads, which I have done, and those coached by pros. I don't care who you are there is a difference no matter how much we don't want there to be. What is your team's name and what age group? Where did you play last year and what tournaments did you win?

I was just stating that there is a difference between travel ball and elite travel ball.

This has turned from what to do with younger players to travel ball for older players.

You have talked out of both sides of your mouth as we say in the south. You first say that travel ball is bad then you say you do it and defend daddy ball. Make up your mind.

I don't think travel ball is for most at 7 or 8U but neither is rec ball good for some.

Let's get back to the main question. Give me one paragraph why good coached baseball for younger teams is worse than rec ball and I will give you my reasons for playing travel ball.

Here are mine first but before you rebuttal. Give me your reasons for not doing young travel ball.

My reasons
1. Good training in a controlled setting with good coaches and good fundamentals.
2. Controlled number of games with organized practices throughout the season.
3. Playing with his friends that all can play ball and both the players and parents want to be there.
4. Good competition that is equivalent to his level of ball. He is challenged to be better and not just be complacent because he is one of the best in his league.
5. My son wanted to do it and he came to me with the idea.
6. His two older brothers played travel ball from age 6 until today and both still love the game and have succeeded at the game. The middle one being able to make his varsity team as a freshman and loves the game.

Now your turn. Remember give me your reasons before you rebuttal.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jeff


You coach this so-called' Elite" travel team do you not?

What makes it elite? The fact you say so ?

As for your statement about not seeing an elite team from Connecticut or the Northeast ( bye the way Connecticut is int he Northeast) what age group are you talking about ?

I reckon Northeast would be where you are from. Connecticut is definitely in Northeast by my map of the United States. Tennessee is in the south and Utah is in the west.

Elite means one of the top teams in the United STates according to some major ranking. USSSA, World Wood Bat, AAU.
I did not say this team was an elite team. We have only scrimmaged to this point.

I was referring to elite travel ball about older teams at the time. My middle son plays on an elite team. Some of you are taking replies out of context. That is why I reply is so that people can know what I am referencing.

I don't believe you can have elite teams until they are old enough or travel enough to play teams from other places in the US. We only plan to travel with this team in a 2 hour range.

Again, no I do not coach this team.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Look at the USSSA site and tell me how many teams in the Northeast are ranked in the top 50 at any age group. Very few.

Please explain to me what this has to do with development of the individual player. I guess the 5th selection in the draft (Brewersw) a few years ago who didn't even play USSSA should give back his bonus and give up. Somehow he brought it 97mph without playing USSSA. Would he have thrown 102 if he played USSSA? You're confusing teams with the development of individual talent.

You are taking a quote out of context. I was asked about TEAMS that are in the top. Not individuals. You can't change my replies to fit your mindset. TEAMS is a group of PLAYERS. You can have a PLAYER that does not play on a good TEAM and can still make it. I did not say there were not any good PLAYERS but very few elite TEAMS in travel ball in the Northeast.

MR CONNELL

I was once asked " why don't you enter tournaments you know you can win?"---that seems to be your philosophy, at least in my eyes

For us the key is exposure and getting the players seen into college or pro situations. Winning events is not the end all be all for us as well as many other teams

By the way, three of our own players are on the Lousiville Pre Season HS team and in total there are 15 players from the Northeast named to the team


Please don't trip on your ego on the way out the door

Jeff, you are wasting your time and energy defending your decisions with some of these guys. This RJM chap would argue with a wall and to continue to argue with him as he twists your words is utter folly.

If it has worked for your sons then keep doing what you are doing. Why in the world would you need to continue to explain your position with your youngest when it has obviously been successful for your two older boys?

It seems to me that if the guys that oppose your path cannot understand that YOU have found it to be successful then too bad for them and theirs that they are so closed-minded to ways other than their own.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I was just stating that there is a difference between travel ball and elite travel ball.

You have talked out of both sides of your mouth as we say in the south. You first say that travel ball is bad then you say you do it and defend daddy ball. Make up your mind.

Let's get back to the main question. Give me one paragraph why good coached baseball for younger teams is worse than rec ball and I will give you my reasons for playing travel ball.

Here are mine first but before you rebuttal. Give me your reasons for not doing young travel ball.

My reasons
1. Good training in a controlled setting with good coaches and good fundamentals.
2. Controlled number of games with organized practices throughout the season.
3. Playing with his friends that all can play ball and both the players and parents want to be there.
4. Good competition that is equivalent to his level of ball. He is challenged to be better and not just be complacent because he is one of the best in his league.
5. My son wanted to do it and he came to me with the idea.
6. His two older brothers played travel ball from age 6 until today and both still love the game and have succeeded at the game. The middle one being able to make his varsity team as a freshman and loves the game.

Now your turn. Remember give me your reasons before you rebuttal.

First, I don't call anything below 18U elite ball. Therefore since my son is a fourteen year old playing on a 16U USSSA majors team, he's not playing elite ball. I believe as 14U last year we were ranked in the top five in our state. The kids look it up. It doesn't matter to me. Pre high school is about development. This doesn't mean we didn't compete in a Super NIT and try to win.

Second, I defend travel ball starting in the teen years. At 13U it's two years to high school. The players should now be playing against the best competition possible to improve their games. Before teens, my son's primary play was LL. Travel was just some extra ball.

My view (written before reading your reasons): Who said rec teams are poorly coached? I've seen poorly coached rec and travel teams. I've seen well coached travel and rec teams. I find paying for coaching and instruction in the hundred and/or thousands of dollars in the preteen years to be a waste.

You can't buy talent with training and expensive teams. By high school those with talent have innate talent. In the teen years is the time to start assessing ability and deciding if an investment in the player's ability is worth cultivating the innate talent. All a preteener needs is a place to play, develop fundamentals and basic skills and develop a passion for the game.

As a preteener my son and I spent hours on the field practicing skills. I believe he got more out of this then being involved with travel teams. In the preteen years if a dad has the knowledge or access to the knowledge (I've trained a lot of friend's kids) that's enough. There's no reason to pay for anything.

At the high school level training can be another story. My son is going to do strength and agility training at a facility that will push him to point where he might walk out on me if I pushed him this hard. But the difference between now and preteen ball is he has the athletic ability in three sports to the point where it's time to start mazimizing it.

As a high school athlete that would like to play college sports (there may be two sports opportunities) it's time to start pushing the limits to see what's there. As a preteener I don't believe it's necessary.

Responding to your points:

1) Got it from rec ball practices and me.

2) Same answer

3) Everyone played LL here even if they played travel. He was constantly facing travel level pitching at the plate and a reasonable number of travel level hitters from the mound. But in preteen ball, who cares!

4) Same answer as 3

5) My son played travel around LL. It was more ball for the summer.

6) My son didn't play organized ball at age six. He loves the game. He may make varsity as a freshman. I have my doubts since it's a large clasification high school. He's also a physical late bloomer who only weighs 135 (5'10") as a freshman.

Add: At my son's underdeveloped size he's touching eighty on the radar at fourteen (fifteen late May) I figure by the time he hits the projected 6'2" and gets his weight up to at least 170 there's a good chance he'll be a solid college pitching prospect. He would have got to eighty without travel ball. He could add 8-10 mph to his fastball without playing travel ball. Physical skills are physical skills. It doesn't matter where they are developed. What matters is they develop. While USSSA will sharpen his pitching skills in high school, if he was pitching in Senior LL hitting 87-90 don't you think colleges would be interested?

By the way I appreciate the good argument/debate.

Jeff ...

Part of our difference in views may be based on how youth ball is handled in our respective areas. All the kids play LL here. The majors league was so loaded with talent when my son played, the less talented kids went out for a nearby independent league. We didn't have anyone who didn't know how to throw, catch and hit. There may have been varying degrees of fundamental skills, but everyone was competent. A majority of the LL was also playing some level of travel whether it was USSSA or community based. When my son was eleven in LL he was facing four pitchers from the 12U state USSSA champions.

Note: Of those four pitchers, only two is still pitching as sophs in high school. One is rated a 9 by PG. Two blew out their arms. One was a big kid who could break a brick wall with a fastball relative to 12U. He never got bigger, stronger or more skilled. He's out of baseball altogether.

This discussion always interests me no matter how many years it repeats itself online. Same discussion different parents. The commonalities usually are:

1. My son is special - more talented than the average player.
2. Rec ball doesn't provide my son a challenege.
3. My son has asked me if he could play TB so he can develop as a player.
4. The Northeast doesn't have the programs or the talent other parts of the country has, therefore we can't possibly understand good youth baseball.
5. A pay for play coach has told me my son has it.
6. "I (usually dad) am not forcing him to do anything."
7. There are no experts when it comes to child development (Maybe in music, art, math, basketball, etc... but not baseball.)
8. Those with experience typically don't understand my son, regardless how many hundreds of kids he has coached or his credentials. Mini-me is special.
9. The parents usually have younger kids and are in the developmental stages themselves as parents.

Did I miss any?

quote:

Originally posted by JakeP:
This discussion always interests me no matter how many years it repeats itself online. Same discussion different parents. The commonalities usually are:

1. My son is special - more talented than the average player.
2. Rec ball doesn't provide my son a challenege.
3. My son has asked me if he could play TB so he can develop as a player.
4. The Northeast doesn't have the programs or the talent other parts of the country has, therefore we can't possibly understand good youth baseball.
5. A pay for play coach has told me my son has it.
6. "I (usually dad) am not forcing him to do anything."
7. There are no experts when it comes to child development (Maybe in music, art, math, basketball, etc... but not baseball.)
8. Those with experience typically don't understand my son, regardless how many hundreds of kids he has coached or his credentials. Mini-me is special.
9. The parents usually have younger kids and are in the developmental stages themselves as parents.

Did I miss any?

Add one more to make a perfect 10.

10. The parents would love to brag anything about their kids to get an "Edge" in discussion. The BODY SIZE(even SHOE SIZE), STATS, BATS, PITCHING SPEEDS, GAMES PLAYED, MONEY PAID......etc.

Some threads are almost sound like a Golden Bragging Threads.

quote:

Originally posted by JakeP:
This discussion always interests me no matter how many years it repeats itself online. Same discussion different parents. The commonalities usually are:

1. My son is special - more talented than the average player.
2. Rec ball doesn't provide my son a challenege.
3. My son has asked me if he could play TB so he can develop as a player.
4. The Northeast doesn't have the programs or the talent other parts of the country has, therefore we can't possibly understand good youth baseball.
5. A pay for play coach has told me my son has it.
6. "I (usually dad) am not forcing him to do anything."
7. There are no experts when it comes to child development (Maybe in music, art, math, basketball, etc... but not baseball.)
8. Those with experience typically don't understand my son, regardless how many hundreds of kids he has coached or his credentials. Mini-me is special.
9. The parents usually have younger kids and are in the developmental stages themselves as parents.

Did I miss any?

Jake,

For the kids who are way ahead of the other kids their age (not just bigger but way better skilled), what would recommend for those kids? Should they maybe try to stay in rec ball but play up in an older age group? I think some leagues might allow this but others might not. I'd like to hear whatever suggestions you have.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

I believe facing the better pitchers in Sunday elimination games is why he went 3-5 and two walks in a 16U JV prep summer league game as a 5'2" thirteen year old. He said the pitching wasn't much .

RJM: If your son is 5'2'' at 13 years old. 5'10" might be his final hight. Where do you get the 6'2"
projection?

I hope this is a typing error by you, if your son is 5'6" at 13 , then projecting 6'2" as adult hight sounds more reseanable.

Please check the Kids' Hight Predictor Link below:

http://pediatrics.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site...e/yahtpredictor.html

quote:

Jake,
For the kids who are way ahead of the other kids their age (not just bigger but way better skilled), what would recommend for those kids? Should they maybe try to stay in rec ball but play up in an older age group? I think some leagues might allow this but others might not. I'd like to hear whatever suggestions you have.

Let them be kids. Let them shine. Let them enjoy themselves while young. The nasty grip of competition gets us all at some point in life and I recognize it's necessary in almost all we do, but not at 7 years old. I say stay rec while on the small field there is much a player can learn in practice with friends that does not have to include a three hour drive. We in baseball are driving the perceived necessity for solid competition and training lower and lower and all we do is pervert the game and ruin players. Remember the stat from the NCAA 1:16,000 HS players play professionally. While we each think we have the one it is more likely we have one of the remaining 15,999.

Many have done research on the topic. All you have to do is keep an open mind and spend a few minutes on Google. Start with the Positive Coaching Alliance.

quote:

Originally posted by JakeP:
Remember the stat from the NCAA 1:16,000 HS players play professionally. While we each think we have the one it is more likely we have one of the remaining 15,999.

Alright Jake, you're being pulled over by the factoid police. To see just how ridiculous the 1/16000 "stat" is consider that there are about 7-8 million boys of high school age in the US. If everyone last one of them played HS baseball, and only 1/16000 made it into professional baseball, that would be 500 boys, or perhaps 150-200 per year. In reality, in any year less than 500,000 play any kind of HS baseball, and less than 150,000 seniors play HS baseball. Your "stat" is off by close to a factor of 100.

According to our very own website, 1 in 200 of HS seniors who play on their HS teams will be drafted. Of all the kids who are playing HS baseball this year in any grade 9-12,roughly 1 in 600 will play professionally. Probability

Indeed, the odds of playing professionally are long--even at 1/200 of HS senior ball players.