There is no data to back up your theory on little guys not pitching, just opinions.
Well I guess we could take this comment two ways. If you are referring to there being no data on the rising injury rates of child baseball players all one needs to do is sit down with Google for a few minutes.
If you are referring to little guys (as in size) not pitching there again you are wrong. All trends indicate players are getting bigger. I took the 1920, 1950 and 2007 Yankees and compared: Here's the Yankees
Jake, Have you taken into consideration the fact that injuries to young kids are being reported more?
I was a child of the '70's and I know of plenty of kids that played with sore arms every game. Some never played again because of it and just moved on to other things when it hurt to bad. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the had torn rotators or needed TJ surgery but just moved on with life because those injuries don't affect much besides baseball.
Now you can get it fixed or rehab if you still want to play. That option wasn't available to the average kid back then.
I always think of it like pro ball players after game activities. A lot of them were hard partying guys but it was never reported. Now we hear if a guy eats a late dinner before a game.
Hustle never has a bad day.
Posts: 530 | Location: Phoenix AZ | Registered: May 02, 2007
There is no data to back up your theory on little guys not pitching, just opinions.
Well I guess we could take this comment two ways. If you are referring to there being no data on the rising injury rates of child baseball players all one needs to do is sit down with Google for a few minutes.
If you are referring to little guys (as in size) not pitching there again you are wrong. All trends indicate players are getting bigger. I took the 1920, 1950 and 2007 Yankees and compared: Here's the Yankees
Maybe its a north south thing. But what does this response have to do with young guys pitching.
Now, back to reality and some of the comments. I have been doing travel ball for 9 years now since my oldest was 8 and my youngest was 6. I realize there are some JERKS out there that would do anything to win. But don't put us all in this category. Our coaches are preparing 6 guys to pitch. We will limit pitches by a count. We are there to teach not just win. But winning is part of teaching. (I'll probably regret that comment with some of you) So is losing.
At least this has heated up the board over the past several weeks as we are still not able to actually play games other than the travel teams that have already started or the tee ball team that is practicing. Just think in a few weeks all we will be talking about is whose kid hit the ball the farthest and who struck out the side in 150 pitch game.
Maybe I've given some of you enough ammo to keep this battle going until we can actually play a game.
Ready. Aim. Fire.
Duck.
Posts: 240 | Location: Johnson City, TN | Registered: April 01, 2004
If you are referring to little guys (as in size) not pitching there again you are wrong. All trends indicate players are getting bigger. I took the 1920, 1950 and 2007 Yankees and compared: Here's the Yankees
But winning is part of teaching. (I'll probably regret that comment with some of you) So is losing.
Learning how to win and lose, talent-wise and emotionally are important in development. However, whether we won or lost when the kids were younger wasn't something I got caught up in. I taught them to play to the best of their ablity and let winning and losing take care of itself. Still do in 16U. Except they sometimes get a good chewing out at the older ages based on behavior not matching stated objectives (becoming a star varsity player).
* Live fully, enjoy every moment, and let go of the petty problems, mostly of our own invention, which seek to destroy the spirit. * - a good friend, the late Brad Perkins of KIRO
Posts: 1684 | Location: Mid-Atlantic | Registered: October 29, 2007
Last season with our t-ball team our little guys would ask us after the game...."Did we win?"
At 6, I personally enjoy that my son is as excited about the post-game snack as he is playing the game. There will come a time when that changes as it does for all....but for now it is refreshing compared to the uber-competitive nature of 18U.
All this talk about 6u, 8u and and even 12U travel ball preparing your sons for high school baseball is ridiculus IMO. As I was watching my son try out for an 11U team a few years ago one of the fathers leaned over to me and said "It really doesn't matter where you kid plays at this age". I thought he was nuts at the time but the last 4 years have made him correct. I have seen numerous boys who played TB, on what were determined very good teams, their entire youth years (8-12) now struggle to keep up on a very good 15U travel team. The team make up is about 50/50 (travel to rec tournament).
At 13 the boys who played mainly travel in youth ball were ahead of the kids who did not. By 14U there was no difference. Now at 15U the kids with the most talent are the ones playing regardless of where they played when younger. Do you think the coach of this team, or any team, cares where his best players played when they were 11. And the best players on this team played mainly town tournament baseball. Talent trumps everything in sports and playing travel baseball does not give you more talent than playing rec ball.
All that really matters is that a talented player continues to improve his skills. I might be wrong but I don't think you improve your skills playing in games. You practice so your at your best when the games start. A player doesn't become a better hitter in games. He becomes a better hitter by taking a few thousand swings over the winter under the guidance of a good coach. You groove a good consistent swing by repitition.
I also think that as our sons get older we look back and see how unimportant the 9U travel team really was in the grand sceam of things. You know what they say about hindsight. The most important thing about youth sports is that the kids have fun and learn.
Posts: 183 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: August 29, 2007
I believe it has to do with the recreation league and the travel ball. There are some bad travel teams and some bad players on good travel teams. But your elite travel teams are producing better players because they are practicing more in better facilities with better coaches. I also believe that the games that elite travel teams play prepare them for high school because they are use to playing good competition and close games. I know my 9th grader who has played on one of the top 10 teams in USSSA growing up is not intimidated by any pitcher in our district. Many of the players off of that team will play and most will pitch on their varsity teams and it is because of the travel ball. The problem with travel ball today is the level of play is so different from top to bottom. When we play local teams, there are games of 30 runs difference if we pitch our best pitchers. I do believe elite travel ball prepares players for competition in high school better. Again, it is the resources as much as anything. They are throwing and hitting all winter even when we are not playing.
Posts: 240 | Location: Johnson City, TN | Registered: April 01, 2004
Originally posted by Jeff Connell: I also believe that the games that elite travel teams play prepare them for high school because they are use to playing good competition and close games.
Jeff, I could not disagree more and this is the package that many parents swallow hook line and sinker. As a high school coach I found the problems with TB well off-sets its benefits, especially when the player started playing TB on a small field, burn-outs, bad techniques that are difficult to correct, parents who feel entitled, etc are all issues HS coaches deal with. The experience the child gains when playing too much too young has its problems and the worse people to assess this is the parent. We would not think of having our 6 year olds spend hour after hour with math teachers teaching inappropriate levels of math. To the normal parent this would seem odd. The problem we have with most TB programs is the abusive environment we have created with regards to baseball has now become the norm. It does NOT make it right...
I will ask what I have asked every parent who feels this is appropriate... Show me one viable report from an expert who says TB at this age is appropriate. You won't find it. You can hide behind whatever these coaches are telling you. I am telling you that after being there and having done that and having an educational background in this topic I am offering this is a very slippery slope you climb.
JMHO
Posts: 59 | Location: Connecticut | Registered: August 01, 2006
I find it surprising that so many on here refer to travel ball as if it is a level of baseball that is somehow equal across the board.
IMO it could not be further from the truth. It used to be called select ball, then travel ball....whatever it's called it is watered-down and the term is over-used. There are small percentages of upper-elite teams that play at each level of baseball and then there are the other 90+% of teams that are mediocre to terrible.
Posters on this thread act as if all teams are created equal and it is just not so. What might be best for Jeff Connell's son might be perfect for him but not good at all for other kids. Who's to know except for Jeff what might be best for his son?
He should listen to some so-called expert? That's a joke. There is no such thing when it comes to youth baseball.
Jeff's son might become a big leaguer thanks to the path his father has chosen for him or then again he may be out of baseball in two years. With all of the variables that come with children, sport, family and individual commitment....there's just no way to know in advance what will happen.
Greenville, Tennessee Marlins is starting a new 7U kid pitch team that will play Northeast Tennessee tournaments. Looking for 7U or even 8U, since most of our tournaments will be 8U this year. Contact me at jconnell@boonetrailbaptist.org if interested.
People who come to open sites looking to support age in-appropriate programs are opening themselves to criticism. 7U travel ball is inappropriate.
More from Jeff:
quote:
Little League is a joke. It glamourizes kids that can't make it in the big world of travel ball. The elite 24 would kill the LLWS. And most of those kids do make it to high school. That is all we can push for. After that is a cherry on top.
The big world of travel ball?? And this does not ring as being a tad inappropriate?
I am not anti-TB, I am anti-TB at such a young age. And I disagree there are NO experts. Orthopedists, child psychologists, kinesiologists, bio-mechanical experts, youth counsellors, college/pro coaches, etc. have all weighed in on this arguement and the overwhelming conscensus is too much too quick is bad. Emphasis on high levels of competition at a young age is bad. Too much throwing for the pre-pubescent body is bad. Overzealous parents are bad. The priority of winning at a young age is bad. Parents can hide behind whatever justification they want, but out of control TB is the Steroids of youth ball. It is done on the misguided belief that it helps. The reality is the long term ramifications far outweigh the short term gains.
Jeff has made up his mind and that is his right as a parent. Maybe through this whole conversation we can keep a few parents on the side of age-appropriate baseball. I do know based on the PM's I receive people are hearing the message.
Baseball is a great game... I have been involved with it for over 40 years as a player, parent, coach, author, and clinician. I have coached hundreds of kids and now get the incredable priviledge to see my old players teaching their own children. It breaks my heart to see parents taking the game too serious at such a young age. For those who think this over the top I ask you to go to your local school and watch a first grade class for five minutes. It will all become clear.
Posts: 59 | Location: Connecticut | Registered: August 01, 2006
I know my 9th grader who has played on one of the top 10 teams in USSSA growing up is not intimidated by any pitcher in our district. Many of the players off of that team will play and most will pitch on their varsity teams and it is because of the travel ball.
Jeff, These kids are not playing varsity because of travel ball, they're playing varsity because they have natural talent. If they are playing on a top notch travel team it is because of talent. What came first the talent or the travel team? I'm sure they all work hard to nurture that talent but they didn't get that talent from playing anywhere. There are alot of less talented kids working just as hard who will never be as good as the top players. And I would be willing to bet that a few of the kids on that team won't be there in a year or two because there will be a better, more talented, kid trying out. The important thing is to not waste the natural abilities or take them for granted.
Posts: 183 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: August 29, 2007
Originally posted by Jeff Connell: I also believe that the games that elite travel teams play prepare them for high school because they are use to playing good competition and close games.
Jeff, I could not disagree more and this is the package that many parents swallow hook line and sinker. As a high school coach I found the problems with TB well off-sets its benefits, especially when the player started playing TB on a small field, burn-outs, bad techniques that are difficult to correct, parents who feel entitled, etc are all issues HS coaches deal with. The experience the child gains when playing too much too young has its problems and the worse people to assess this is the parent. We would not think of having our 6 year olds spend hour after hour with math teachers teaching inappropriate levels of math. To the normal parent this would seem odd. The problem we have with most TB programs is the abusive environment we have created with regards to baseball has now become the norm. It does NOT make it right...
I will ask what I have asked every parent who feels this is appropriate... Show me one viable report from an expert who says TB at this age is appropriate. You won't find it. You can hide behind whatever these coaches are telling you. I am telling you that after being there and having done that and having an educational background in this topic I am offering this is a very slippery slope you climb.
JMHO
I hope you don't take offense to this but... I have never seen an elite travel team from Connecticut or the Northeast to be frank. The best teams comes from the south, Texas, or California. There is a big difference between what you call travel ball up there and elite travel ball in the south. We came to Maryland for a world series and soundly beat anything you had up there. I have been involved in travel ball for 10 years and have never seen an elite team up there. So when we talk about travel ball and you talk about travel ball, we are talking about two totally different things. I'm talking about teams coached by pro scouts, ex-pro players, college coaches, and elite high school coaches. Not just dads putting together a team. That is the problem with this debate is we are talking two totally different things. I agree with the bad techniques and bad coaching and overzealous parents. I will also disagree with the math statement. As a culture, we are amazed by the kids that get on tv and spell the words we can not pronounce. Those kids are drilled every day on spelling and read the dictionary through over and over and we applaud them. I have come to realize in this and the other post that in many ways we are on the same page. You may have never seen what we are talking about by elite travel ball in the south. Ask the coaches down here about the players that come from ELITE travel teams. They are recruiting those players because they can start all four years and have excellent mechanics. Again, we are not talking daddy ball that calls itself travel ball.
Posts: 240 | Location: Johnson City, TN | Registered: April 01, 2004
Originally posted by fillsfan: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I know my 9th grader who has played on one of the top 10 teams in USSSA growing up is not intimidated by any pitcher in our district. Many of the players off of that team will play and most will pitch on their varsity teams and it is because of the travel ball.
Jeff, These kids are not playing varsity because of travel ball, they're playing varsity because they have natural talent. If they are playing on a top notch travel team it is because of talent. What came first the talent or the travel team? I'm sure they all work hard to nurture that talent but they didn't get that talent from playing anywhere. There are alot of less talented kids working just as hard who will never be as good as the top players. And I would be willing to bet that a few of the kids on that team won't be there in a year or two because there will be a better, more talented, kid trying out. The important thing is to not waste the natural abilities or take them for granted.
Do you know of any elite teams? If so, please give the name and age group. I believe many of you do not know what we are talking about. You are referring to travel ball as this local daddy run program. I can guarantee you that none of the kids on this team will be replaced in a year or two by anything coming behind them. I will agree with the talent part but it is a combo of talent and training. It is interesting that some of you are talking out of both sides of your mouths. YOu talk about bad techniques and daddy ball is messing kids up, t-ball is bad, and then scream and holler when someone puts their kid on a team that teaches good mechanics, limited pitching- but proper pitching mechanics, and says let the kids have fun. YOu could not come to one of our practices and tell me the kids aren't having fun. We practice twice a week. I know of t-ball teams that are practicing 5 days a week already and have no coach on the team that has ever played baseball or coached it. And you tell me this is better than a team that is coached by proven players and coaches? Get a life.
Posts: 240 | Location: Johnson City, TN | Registered: April 01, 2004
You're missing the point, at least my point... The key is keeping what we do age-appropriate. Bad ball at any level is bad ball. We (at least I) cut a broad brush across kiddie travel ball because of it's common chracteristics, those characteristics being overzealous parents and uneducated coaches. You started the thread looking to recruit a 7 or 8 y/o child for a travel team. Based on my experience, education and the findings and testimony of experts this age group is too young for anything but rec ball and is typically driven by the parents. An 8 y/o at a LL game having fun with his friends is ALL he needs at this age. The people who care most about talent disparity are parents not players. Coaches who typically coach in a very competative league are those coaches whose sole goal is to win. There is a time and place for this, and it isn't at 6, 7, or 8 y/o. There is no one more competative in the duggout than me and if I could do it all over again with my kids is the thing I would change first is the attitude I shared with you about competative young ball. When it is all said and done none of it matters until the players hit the large field. I shake my head at all the potential talent we burned out at a young age thinking we did the right thing- we didn't.
Socrates said: "We would be wise to listen to the old man, as he has walked on the path on which we are about to step."
I would also offer wisdom can comes at different ages. I watched my son coach teenagers last year. He's a lot more loosey goosey than me (Maybe my military background). I asked him "Don't you think you could get more out of your practice if you were a little tougher?" His reply - "Sure, but they wouldn't be having as much fun."
Don't coach trying to find the one, coach to develop the many.
Posts: 59 | Location: Connecticut | Registered: August 01, 2006
You coach this so-called' Elite" travel team do you not?
What makes it elite? The fact you say so ?
As for your statement about not seeing an elite team from Connecticut or the Northeast ( bye the way Connecticut is int he Northeast) what age group are you talking about ?
TRhit
Posts: 19231 | Location: Manchester, CT USA | Registered: December 26, 2002
Jeff, Two things. First, to say there are no elite teams from the northeast is exposing yourself as limited in your scope of knowledge about travel baseball at its most important age groups (16-17). I know of two teams from New Jersey (Baseball U & Tri State Arsenal) that compete on a pretty even level with the top national programs (East Cobb, NorCal) at Perfect Game tournaments. Second, You said that no one on your team could be replaced by another player. I find it hard to believe that you have the top 10 or 12 baseball players in Tennesse and the surround areas on your team. Open up your tryouts every year and see what you get. If your not upgrading your falling behind. Even the Yankees look to upgrade every year. Believe it or not their are other top notch players out there than the ones on your team.
Posts: 183 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: August 29, 2007
Great post---I was going to name teams from the NE but I did not want to miss anyone---I still want to know what age group he is speaking of---
I would refer you to Baseballreference.com and encourage you to test your theory. The proportion of major leaguers from the Northeast might suprise you. Also in NE we have 9(?) professional teams and one of the most elite summer college programs in the country (Cape Cod). Many of these opinions about sun belt ball are perpetuated by the same people who find the need for youth elite ball. When tested it just doesn't wash.
Posts: 59 | Location: Connecticut | Registered: August 01, 2006
Everyone has thrown their opinion out there and now I would like to also.
What is the problem with Jeff wanting to have a team with his son? If there is a better father and son activity out there I have never heard of it! He is getting attacked from all sides and he has some strong opinions, and his credentials are being attacked but what does those things matter?
He has a team and is hanging out with his son. He has a baseball background. The kids will have fun and stay healthy. 10 to 12 other families will get to ride on his coattails and effort and countless hours that he will put in to make it happen. He will spend a ton of his own money. He is putting in the effort and time that all of you should be aware of as former and current coaches.
My father wasn't much into baseball. He took us camping all of the time when I was a kid. He spent a lot of money on camping gear. He spent a lot of time when he could be doing something else. He was not concerned with us becoming pro campers, fishermen or hunters. He liked the outdoors and spending time with us. That is how I see all youth coaches. They take something that they love and find a way to spend time with their kids and also make 10-12 other kids really happy.
Give the guy a break. He is doing something good for himself, his family, and his community. He should be getting pats on the back instead of all of this garbage!!
