quote:

Originally posted by deldad:
Jeff-It is not you I worry about. You sound like a good guy, and a great dad who just wants to spend some time with your youngest son playing baseball.

I'm not going to enter the spitting contest that's ensued here but simply add to deldad's comment above. I've had the pleasure to meet Jeff and his family. They are bar none some of the nicest, down to earth folks you'd ever want to meet. You back anybody into a corner and their defenses will go up. He's not the braggy "My kid's a stud, blah, blah blah" type that can get out of hand from time to time on here. It just seemed like he's got some young boys looking to play a little higher level basbeall than they can find at the local rec league.

I can see both sides of this as I'm sure many pre-HS parents can. My sons started select/travel at 9u. In our area, Little League is a joke. The quality of play is really bad, all-stars is a political joke. The league changed their rules because of our team. We had the 7 or 8 best players in the league on our team. But the local administrators told our coach they changed the rule so that no team could put more than 3 players on all-stars. So we dropped out completely and left the league. We probably would have stayed through 10u but given the stupidity of the rules for 11-12 and the size of the field they play on, we would have left after 10u anyway.

My only real fear of moving to select/travel was that my son would be pitching a lot and I wasn't very happy about pitching at age 9. So I made an agreement with the coach before the season that he could pitch but we had strict limits on pitch counts and innings (more strict than league and tournament rules). He abided by 'our rules' and it worked out ok.

The bottom line for us was this...my sons had much more fun moving to select ball than they did in little league. Little league plays about 20-25 games. We play about 45.

When we went select 4-5 years ago, there were almost no other select teams around here. Now there are loads of them. I've seen some of them and most that I've seen are terrible. They're glorified rec teams. I suspect there are a lot of coaches and parents that want to be able to say their kids play select. For those kids, select/travel ball probably isn't a good thing.

quote:

Little league plays about 20-25 games. We play about 45.

I'll say it again... Show me an expert that says this is good at this age group - just one.

quote:

When we went select 4-5 years ago, there were almost no other select teams around here. Now there are loads of them. I've seen some of them and most that I've seen are terrible. They're glorified rec teams. I suspect there are a lot of coaches and parents that want to be able to say their kids play select. For those kids, select/travel ball probably isn't a good thing.

Sorry YHF this reeks of elitism at is worse. Those who catagorize any youth team as glorified anything have lost their way. I've seen some of the best in the game come from what most TB parents would call poor rec programs and I've seen some of the worse come from what some TB parents call "Elite" programs. The high horse seldom makes the full trip.

Again, show me one expert that states TB is good at the younger ages.

quote:

Originally posted by JakeP:

quote:

Little league plays about 20-25 games. We play about 45.

I'll say it again... Show me an expert that says this is good at this age group - just one.


"Sorry YHF this reeks of elitism at is worse. Those who catagorize any youth team as glorified anything have lost their way. I've seen some of the best in the game come from what most TB parents would call poor rec programs and I've seen some of the worse come from what some TB parents call "Elite" programs. The high horse seldom makes the full trip.

Wow. You must be an expert. So explain to me why 25 games is the right number for all kids 9-12. I'd love to hear that. And then please provide some scientific research that says 45 games is harmful to children. Speaking of elitist....

The only elitist here is you. You are the one worried about which kids 'make it' and which kids don't. I don't have any plans for my kids to play pro ball. Little League competition was **** and my sons weren't going to get better playing against such weak competition. They were bored to death with the games (notice I didn't say 'the practices' which we did have fun with). I'm an expert in only one category....my kids. I can only say I don't have to make my kids do anything when it comes to baseball. They want more, more, more. If I throw them 2 buckets of balls, they want 2 more. My 14u son asked his football and baseball coaches to develop a workout plan for him and he does it every day on his own. My 12 yr old comes to me every day to help him with shoulder exercises due to mobility issues and inflammation in his rotator cuff tendons in his throwing shoulder. There hasn't been one single day I've had to remind him or make him do his exercises. He wants to play come March and he wants to pitch. And he knows what it's going to take for him to get healthy enough to do that.

So when I say I see teams that don't belong in travel ball, I'm being completely honest. That's probably elitist, but no more so than you telling me what's best for my sons. I see these teams show up in our local select league and they get beat up for a year or two then disappear. Seen it time and time again. My reasons are to prepare my kids for the chance to tryout for high school ball. That's it.

As another poster once put it here...there's travel ball and then there's travel ball.

May I ask why a 12 year old has shoulder problems?

quote:

My 12 yr old comes to me every day to help him with shoulder exercises due to mobility issues and inflammation in his rotator cuff tendons in his throwing shoulder. There hasn't been one single day I've had to remind him or make him do his exercises.

You make my point...

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty34:
most people here are concerned for the health of the boys trying to pitch to many to far, most are not developed for that yet.

I reinstate my comment and agree that no 12 year old should have rotator cuff or shoulder problems, unless they are being pushed to hard or not properly being trained in pitching mechanics!!!

I really don't care where your kids play... my youngest is 22.
He played LL and it was great fun for him and our family. We would spend hours at the local LL fields watching games, hanging out with friends. Some of our best memories are of those local games.
Last year I sat at my son's minor league game with some of those LL friends and talked about the glory days and how that was the best baseball...... It had little to do with the competition.

NJBB,

From your post, I assume your son is playing in the minor leagues. Did he go the travel route or stick with strictly LL/Babe Ruth/Legion and HS ball?

quote:

Originally posted by batdad25:
NJBB,

From your post, I assume your son is playing in the minor leagues. Did he go the travel route or stick with strictly LL/Babe Ruth/Legion and HS ball?

Batdad, are you suggesting the way to the pros is only through TB?
Jake

Jake,

Not at all... Just curious what route his son took to get to that level. I have heard many debates on which is the way to go. Just wanted to get as much info from people who have been there.

quote:

Originally posted by batdad25:
NJBB,

From your post, I assume your son is playing in the minor leagues. Did he go the travel route or stick with strictly LL/Babe Ruth/Legion and HS ball?

The LL went to age 13/14 and he played until he was 14, he was also on the high school team. In the summer when he was 14,15 and 16 he played AAU which did some weekend tournaments but most were 2 hrs away.
At 17 he played for the RBI program. and in the fall at age 16 and 17 he played on a scout team from Virginia which involved 5 hrs of travel.

He attended MLB open try outs in our area while in high school and attended 2 show cases the summer after his JR yr.and the WWB tournament in Jupiter. The showcases and fall ball got him the exposure to college coaches.

quote:

Originally posted by JakeP:

quote:

My 12 yr old comes to me every day to help him with shoulder exercises due to mobility issues and inflammation in his rotator cuff tendons in his throwing shoulder. There hasn't been one single day I've had to remind him or make him do his exercises.

You make my point...

Thanks for not addressing the really important stuff in my post, which I assume you don't have much of a reply for.

I knew you would fall for that but didn't realize TR and others would do the same. You know what they say when you "assume" something.

My 12 yr old had a bike wreck in October, flipping over the handle bars landing hard on his shoulder. Original diagnosis was a moderate separation. It still hasn't gotten better so we went to an Orthopaedic Dr. and now a physical therapist.

Injury to the acromion (I'll give you $5 if you know what that is). I googled it for you...

"Anatomy

The term “Rotator Cuff” is used to describe the group of muscles and their tendons in the shoulder that helps control shoulder joint motion. The supraspinatus is at the top (superior) of the shoulder, the subscapularis is anterior (front), and the infraspinatus and teres minor are posterior (behind). These muscles insert or attach to the humeral head by way of their tendons. The tendons fuse together giving rise to the term “cuff.” Although each muscle acting alone may produce an isolated rotational movement of the shoulder, the role they play together is to help keep the humeral head (ball) centered within the glenoid (socket) as the powerful deltoid and other larger shoulder muscles act to lift the arm overhead.

Above the rotator cuff is a bony projection from the scapula (shoulder blade) called the acromion. The acromion forms the “ceiling” of the shoulder, serves as the point of origin for the deltoid muscle, and joins the clavicle (collarbone) to form the acromioclavicular (a/c) joint. Between the rotator cuff tendons and the acromion is a protective fluid-filled sack called a “bursa". With normal humeral elevation there is some contact between the rotator cuff, the bursa, and the acromion."

His rotator cuff tendons are inflammed pretty badly, causing an impingement (with loud 'popping' noises sometimes when he raises his shoulder over head). He's lost some range of motion and his scapula is working incorrectly when he raises his arm over his head.

Heated ultrasound for the inflammation and stretching and small weighted stuff for the range of motion and loss of strength.

I know how much it hurts him to do the exercises, but he still does them everyday. He wants to play really bad. But not in Little League.

Now, let's get back to the really important stuff...you guys telling us what's best for our kids.

NJBB,

Thanks for the follow up!

You would have to know me to know how far off your assumptions of me are. This conversation remains the same year after year - the parents change, unfortunately their over zealous expectations don't.

My advice is this...
Don't get too hung up on TB until the big field. Few HS coaches care about pre-big field experiences and most only care about what the player brings to the field on the day of try-outs. Until MS let them have fun. Rec ball is all they need. The primary job of a parent at this age should be to develop a love for the game. This is not accomplished through excessive games, tough competition or high expectations (I assume we are still talking about 7 and 8 y/o's - this would be what 1st and second graders?)

I may not know your son, but I do know the 600 or so players I have coached over the years(Most now adults). Do with the information what you want.

PS: My youngest (Now a MS coach) broke several bones in a motorcross accident when he was 12. He sat until all the damage was repaired and he was able to throw without pain. It did not hamper him when he hit HS.

For the guy that started this thread and others in his shoes, they have to decide what's best for their kids. Certainly there are parents and coaches that overdo it. But not every situation is the same. If you have a good local rec league, then by all means, have at it. We don't. So we moved on.

My older sons are 14 and 12. They've played select/travel since 9u. Both love it more now than they ever have. If they both decided to quit this year, I wouldn't complain a bit. They decide how much they want to play, or if they want to play at all.

For my youngest son who will play 9u this year, his coach is leaning toward select/travel. It is ok I guess but I'd prefer he stay in rec ball another year or two. My 9u son is not a pitcher (which is a good thing) but he's not as overtly competitive as his brothers were at that age. He loves the game so much that I just want him to have fun at this point.

Anyone considering travel/select ball at age 8 or 9 please read this...... The big issue about travel ball (IMO) is not the number of games. It's the tournaments. You play 4-5 games in two days, and many kids pitch both days. I don't like that a bit and I believe it's harmful. I've seen young kids throwing without strict pitch limits because their coaches cared more about 'winning' than long term health (and I think this is what JakeP and others are concerned about as well). In 12u a couple years ago, my oldest son played against a team on Sunday and the opposing pitcher pitched the entire game (155 pitches...we counted it). He had also pitched 75 pitches the day before. I was sick to my stomach for that kid. I'm an assistant on the team and I went to the other teams' coaches around the 4th inning when it was obvious the pitch count was out of control. They weren't even counting pitches. Had no idea, and didn't care a wit what I had to say about it. They thought I was trying to take advantage of them in some way because the game was tight. Now that kind of **** scares me. Fortunately, from what I've seen, that kind of stuff is the exception. Our league has strict pitch limits, and our team has pitch limits for tournaments (stricter than the tournament innings limits). You need your coaches to have strict pitch limits for your sons.

From jakep "PS: My youngest (Now a MS coach) broke several bones in a motorcross accident when he was 12. He sat until all the damage was repaired and he was able to throw without pain. It did not hamper him when he hit HS."

Thanks for the encouragement. My son is working really hard but if he can't pitch this year then so be it. He will be disappointed but I wouldn't. If there's no real damage there (e.g. tendon tear) then he can play all year without pitching. This is our Cooperstown year so even if he can't pitch, he can still enjoy another special season. Our school doesn't allow 7th graders and below to try out for Freshman ball, so he's got a couple years before dealing with that.

Thanks.

quote:

In 12u a couple years ago, my oldest son played against a team on Sunday and the opposing pitcher pitched the entire game (155 pitches...we counted it). He had also pitched 75 pitches the day before. I was sick to my stomach for that kid. I'm an assistant on the team and I went to the other teams' coaches around the 4th inning when it was obvious the pitch count was out of control. They weren't even counting pitches. Had no idea, and didn't care a wit what I had to say about it. They thought I was trying to take advantage of them in some way because the game was tight. Now that kind of **** scares me. Fortunately, from what I've seen, that kind of stuff is the exception. Our league has strict pitch limits, and our team has pitch limits for tournaments (stricter than the tournament innings limits). You need your coaches to have strict pitch limits for your sons.

Because travel ball is more about winning than rec ball the problem is compounded when the players reach MS and HS. Most State IAC (Interscholastic Athletic Conferences) do not allow players to play extra-curricular ball. The main reason is non-HS coaches injuring players, especially pitchers. The potential for damage at MS is even greater as this is when the players are most vulnerable and few schools restrict extra-curricular play. Added to this already volatile combination are coaches who do not communicate and allow (or force) players to pull double duty. Again my advice.. Rec ball until the large field, start looking for summer ball in MS. In HS play HS and Legion or a comparable league. 45 game for pre-pubescent teens is too much.

To Jeff Connell and any other parents considering select baseball as an alternative to rec ball:

I apologize to Jake for being a little over the top in my previous posts. Jake is a really thoughtful guy and I for one appreciate his concern for young ballplayers out there. Though Jake and I are having a disagreement here, we're pretty close to being on the same page. The only real area of disagreement is whether the playing of select/travel ball at young ages is automatically wrong for your kid.

I don't believe it is automatically. IMO the real risk is to pitchers given the structure of weekend tournaments where many kids pitch on back-to-back days. If your son will be a pitcher, I would not take him select at 8u. In fact, I would avoid it until 9u, and only then might I allow it if I could strictly control his pitch counts and not allow him to pitch on consecutive days.

Rec ball is best for some kids but I believe select ball is best for others. There are parents that are all about their kid's glory and that's unavoidable (in rec ball and select). And I hate it for those kids. They'll end up quitting baseball in a few years. But if you are a diligent parent and have a diligent coach, it can work. Just know that there will be opposing teams and perhaps even other parents on your team that don't share your approach. If you're unsure what to do, I believe Jake's advice is best for you until you know your son is ready to move up.

Best of luck.

Jake,
We play around 80-100 games a year in Phoenix at 13U in a nine month time period. Our season is much longer. But we also have 10 kids that can pitch and every tournament about 4-5 kids never get on the mound. We never play back to back weekends. I am sure that if we had a short season, like you have in Conn, we would only play 45 games or so. We also have 4 kids that catch. It may seem like a lot but it is fun and the kids never throw more than once in a tournament and I haven't seen a kid throw over 80 pitches. Occasionally a kid will go 70 plus, but it depends on the kid and how he is doing. If he isn't laboring and his mechanics are sound he may throw 70. It is usually much less. About half of the kids on the team throw curve balls(not my son) and they only throw LL curve balls. The technique without any snap. It is more like a cut fastball.

Just wanted to show another side.

And I have also seen kids throw 140+ pitches in a game. It made all of us parents flinch every time the kid threw after he had reached around 80. The kid threw 90% curve balls. AND he was the coaches son on the other team.