i am not really on topic but i think it does relate to it.
i believe arm injuries for the most part are an accumulative injury. from pitching to much and not throwing enough. you may not actually have that ucl tear until much later.
i believe most tj surgery's come from throwing hard,before the body is ready. i would say most pitchers that need tj are hard thrower's. just my opinion.

i have talked with Dr. Andrews on several occasions. he said kids are throwing cb way to early. and there are more tj surgery's than ever at younger and younger ages.

for every player like bobbles their are players like mine. while he didn;t throw a cb until he was 14, he was ridden like a rented mule. has many trophy's ,all everything and a half moon scar on the inside of his left elbow.

nobody ever get's hurt ....until they do.even then nobody will remember why. exept the opposing players that couldn't hit his cb.

sorry to ramble.

Coach May I don't think that pitchers develop FBs on the mound. They develop arm strength by working out.
I can assure you that my son and a few others I know would not be college pitchers today if they had to rely on their FBs at an ealy age. Throwing a CB is a talent that has to be developed and not all kids can do it effectively. It requires a touch that most who only throw FBs have a hard time mastering.

Nice post Coach May I agree what is the rush,plus
I am not willing to chance my son`s future.

20Dad sorry to hear about your son being rode like a rented mule, I saw this last weekend with a 12y/o
pitcher who threw 140+ pitches in a travel tourney
game,one curve after another.The next game(back to back games)he was at 2nd and could barely
throw to first.

Got the same argument going on over in the General Forum. Coach May is right on. From my post on the other side:

This web site is about HS baseball and if you (or your son) want to make your HS team you must posses a good FB. End of story. There are exceptions.... but they are just that.... exceptions.

When little Johnny LL curveball wonderboy walks on to the field as a Freshmen with his blazing 62 MPH FB and the kid next to him is throwing 75, guess who is going to get the coaches attention. The best pitch in baseball has always been, and will always be a well located FB.

BOF are you telling me that your freshmen in HS can only muster 62-75. They would be the slowest pitcher on my son's HS team back then. I considered 80 slow.

Coach May, excellent post. While we know that each young man and his genetics are different, I too have never seen a kid with a Great hook before age 13, become anything in high school. Kids who were working on developing their arms and fastballs, usually had a better chance of pitching in higher levels. I had read recently that ASMI discouraged a CB under 15 yrs old, and I have always followed that position, even before they wrote it. If a youth pitcher can't get batters out with FB and CU, then he should move to the outfield. Some Dads just want everyone to know that 11 yr old johnny has a great hook. I think this thread got 5 check marks for its Stupidity.

It's fun how you guys beat up on little Jonny and his dad. Fact is this dad waswn't hung up on myth and did his research and got the best coaching info I could. He was MVP in his freshman year as a varsity pitcher. Another fact is that if my son was at risk I would have stepped in and talked to him. His coaches never let him go out unless he was 100% and asked him every time he went to the mound. He was paranoid about arm injury. One time I asked him why he came out and he said he wasn't feeling 100%. He had just struck out 7 guys of the nine he faced in 3 innings. Was he caught up in the moment. Not at all. He had sat and cooled down in i9nclement weather and pulled himself. You guys look at old research and will never change and I am happy for you.
Everything I have seen refutes your beliefs. ASMI as you know now states they cannot find a relationship between CBs and arm injury. That doesn't mean that you won't injure your arm throwing one but you are more likely to hurt yourself thyrowing too often and FBs. I have seen way too many guys injured throwing FBs. Just a fact I have noticed.

i would say more than a few good hs pitchers either weren't good or didn't pitch much,in youth baseball. not all but more than a few.

Bobble I totally agree with you when you say a fb is not developed on the hill. It is developed by working on good throwing mechanics , long toss etc etc. I do agree that learning to throw a good breaking ball takes time and a feel for the pitch. Now there are some kids that have a natural feel for a breaking ball as well. Some kids find it a little harder to get a feel for. I think there is a big difference in learning to get a feel for a breaking ball at a younger age and pitching in games and spinning it up there pitch after pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
BOF are you telling me that your freshmen in HS can only muster 62-75. They would be the slowest pitcher on my son's HS team back then. I considered 80 slow.

BHD:

As mentioned my son was a HS Freshmen last year will be Soph this year. I purchased a Stalker and have used it at most games and have developed a pretty good idea of REAL pitching velocities. (note Mcdsguy "Dad minus 7 rule" apply's here - it is really accurate)

I am continuting to build up the data base and I keep a log book of all of the pitchers that I measure. I gunned a few kids off of the Simi High team that won the So Cal HS championship and saw a couple of 4th rounders taken in this years draft.

This is what I can say so far: (more to come as my son moves up)

Ave HS Freshmen: 70-72 Lots at 68-70.
Elite HS Freshmen: 76 (seen one throw 80)

Ave HS JV: 75-76
Elite HS JV: 79-81

Ave HS Vars: 79-80
Elite HS Vars: 85+

Note I have seen MORE HS Varsity pitchers below 80 than over 80. Tops I have seen was working 87-89 with 91 max. (taken in 4th round as mentioned)

A former pitching coach of my son said (and I am not sure where he got this data) that a Freshmen throwing 78 was in the top 3% of the pitchers nationwide.

I admit I have not seen a lot of competitve league Varsity games, but this data is from SoCal in a very competitive baseball area. As mentioned I will have a much better idea on Varsity level next year but this is real data, not some number from a "Dad" sitting in the stands guessing.

A few things here:

Why does a dad of a frosh/soph need a radar gun?

Too many talk about what they hear or questionable data---why?

Why do parents make judgements based on information they themselves cannot validate?

C'mon folks ---let get real

My readings were from a jug and my son was considered slow at 80 mph in varsity. Several of the pitchers were drafted as well or D1 college throwing 90 +. My son's reading were from MLB camps. At 17 he was throwing 83-84 and had scouts all over him but they wanted more velocity. The craxy thing is his velocity hasn't really changed much at 22 yo even after 3 years of college.
We did have lots of sub 80 pitchers but they were not very successful as a rule. We had several that were 85+ based on MLB camps readings. I also had a jug that was used by his elite team and charted their home games. They also had several 85+ guys. Below 80 was considered very slow.

BHD:

PGStaff can verify what is considered recruitable velocities, but I consider these the elite category. One's that go to a D1’s or are draftable. You know the stats; these are the 10% of the Varsity HS players that move on to college or above. The facts are that there are many many other kids throughout the US (and Canada) playing HS baseball and many will not throw over 80, they can have fun, be successful, and enjoy the experience.

You also know better than I that the make up of a HS pitching staff . You have your number 1 & 2 who most likely are in (or close to) the elite category that are getting 90% of the mound time in league play, and/or playoffs. Then you have the number 3-6 kids who are getting innings outside of league or are spot relievers. From a numbers stand point they make up a much larger population. These are the kids that I call average.

Since this is in the PreHS thread about breaking pitches, etc. I think the important point from all of this is that if you (or your son) aspires to be the number 1 or 2 pitcher on your HS team you better be working on a good FB NOW. You might make it without one, but then you better a) Be a Lefty b) As Coach May pointed out be a very good “pitcher” who can locate well.

The bottom line is that the higher the velocity you can throw the better your chances.

quote:

playing HS baseball and many will not throw over 80, they can have fun, be successful, and enjoy the experience.

Great post. Need to be placed in the Hall of Fame for post. As has been mentioned here a few times, less than 1% of high school players will play in the PROs.


From BOF post on average speeds, it looks like there is a 5 mph in average velocity from Soph to junion and another 5 mph from junior to Senior.

Question for the Coaches out there in your experiance at what ages (on average) do you normally see the biggest gain in MPH for a pitcher?

Our HS pitchers were only allowed 12 outs. You had to have some good pitchers to round out the P staff. There were actually several who went to D1 college ball and a few to pro ball. What I found in HS was that sveral guys were going through hormons and wanted to work to buy a junker so they could date and party. I never considered them college or pro prospects. When guys get to 16-18 their interests change. I found this true in AAA city ball as well. Many had no prospects so they didn't take it seriously I considered that quite normal so my son chose to not play HS or AAA ball in his last year of HS. On his elite team about 50% went on to play college ball at some level. I might add that very few had any arm injuries. They worked out year round. Some injuries occured while in college but not many.

I would say over the years the biggest jump in velocity has come from the Soph season to the Jr season.

Of course the guys that work hard in the off season have jumped every year. But it seems from my experience that time between the soph and jr year you see the most.

I definitely agree with Coach May about personal experience amd youngsters throwing CBs. I have seen two boys throw CB more than usual in LL and then both have Tommy John surgery after their sophmore year in HS. The funny thing is that both kids were the hardest throwers in their age groups and didn't need a curve ball to get kids out.
I think the parents like seeing their sons pitch "like the pros" and got a kick out of their 11 yo son making other 11 yo look bad. I believe it is a parents responsilbity to stop a kid from thowing so many CB, not encourge it.

So you positive these hard throwers hurt themselves with CBs and not FBs.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I think the parents like seeing their sons pitch "like the pros" and got a kick out of their 11 yo son making other 11 yo look bad. I believe it is a parents responsilbity to stop a kid from thowing so many CB, not encourge it.

I recently returned from STL with son who required arthroscopic surgery. After two MRI, nothing serious was determined other than some slight fraying that may be causing discomfort, but it was also suggested that the doctor take a closer look at what was going on.
After surgery the doctor came out to tell me how things went and asked a few questions. He told me that personally he was surprised to see such a healthy 22 year old arm, pitching since 8. Our philosophy, I told him, was to concentrate on mechanics, let velocity develop natually, limit playing time, innings, rest, develop two FB's and various change ups AND no CB's until a certain age and then allowed to throw more as he matured. Slider began to develop as a senior in HS.

Not to get into specifics of the rest of the conversation, it's amazing the info given to me regarding younger and younger players needing surgery (shoulder and elbow) or major time off to rehab in lieu of any surgerical procedure. There is no direct correlation between young players throwing CB's requiring TJ vs.shoulder surgery. An injury is an injury. There are conclussions that young harder throwing pitchers are more successful and used more often, and in addition, adding CB, sliders for more success at earlier ages than necessary.

So I beleive the above statement, after discussion with an ortho who has a very successful practice that treats sports injuries for all ages, to most likely be the biggest culprit in a phenomenon taking place in youth baseball today.

My best advice to do as a parent, what you feel is appropriate for your child's age limit, feel comfortable with your decision and don't let anyone else tell you what is right or wrong, because, obviously every pitcher is different and so are their parents.

The object I am assuming is that many of your players wish someday to reach the highest level of the game. That is almost virtually impossible to achieve if one does not remain consistantly healthy. You can read all the scientific information gathered and follow recommendations to the tee and still find that things happen. Most pitchers experience some bumps in the road, some bumps are bigger than others. Setting limits when they are under your care is a big factor, once they head off to college you have no control over what you can control when they are there. Your player is now in someone elses care and not all coaches CARE about their future. The healthy pitcher in college, will most likely be used often, especially if many of their teammates come with injuries before they have thrown their first pitch. Better to save those pitches for then.

The best prevention, I am to conclude, is common sense.

Most of the pitchers I know who have injuries got injured in MiLB or college. I am not sure why but a lot may have to do with the desire to win at all cost.
I think the best thing that could have happened for my son last year was that they video streamed his games in college and I was able to see what was happening to him. His mechanics were so bad I couldn't watch.
He has been home for a couple weeks and we have made great improvement to his mechanics. He was dropping his elbows and whipping his arm through. That for the 1st time was causing shoulder impingement. Aftyer working on his mechanics he feels great and is able to keep his ball down and breaking out of the strike zone like he used to do. He has been trying to get his velocity up and now understands that he has to maintain good mechanics. I showed him one of his teammated from HS who played 4 years at UALR and was injured 2 of those years. I said he was throwing just like him and could also look forward to shoulder problems just like him. Its your choice.
He now understands why he is injury free at 22.
I don't want to start another discussion on pitching mechanics but the elbows should be at shoulder height and rotate with a posh pull rotation with the upper body. He said his shoulder felt great throwing like that.