Once again, here is the link to the presentation that Dr. Andrews and Dr. Fleisig did to little league. It is also posted several posts up.

www.littleleague.org/pitchcount/pitchpresentation.htm

And yes Doughnut, it does seem like they can't make up their mind. Even in this presentation, you will hear them say over and over that the curveball is not dangerousand that there is no evidence that the curveball is dangerous to the arm, but, then state that you should not throw the curveball. Really kind of weird.

Like I said earlier, it really seems like they are stuck on the old assumption that the curveball is bad, but their research shows that this is not the case and they are still struggling with this, just like many of the people who have responded to this post.

They are writing one thing and not sure about it. I only had time for the first section and that was pretty clear.

they recommend
fb age 8
cu age 10
cb age 14
kb age 15
everything else 16 and above

They also state that breaking balls should not be thrown until the kid starts shaving.

Those things are taken directly from their presentation.

They also say that no one really knows what is the perfect time table.

They also state that breaking balls are related to higher amounts of pain in the shoulder and elbow. Never a good thing.

I haven't the time today to listen to the rest, but are you saying that they contradict this later on in the formal presentation?

Very weird indeed.

Dman JR is going to work on velocity, location, and the cu until he starts shaving. If he can't get batters out with those tools he shouldn't pitch anyway IMHO. Why risk it just to get a K?

Yes they do. It is weird. Listen to the second section. They sort of build a case for more pain throwing curveballs, then say that the biomechanics tests show that curveballs cause less force on the elbow and shoulder. Dr. Fleisig actually seems a little confused by the information as he presents it.

All right,
I just listened to the whole thing. On the cb front, they said that it was inconclusive, use common sense, and they have experts saying don't do it.

How in the heck does anybody get it is OK for pre shaving kids to throw cb's out of this presentation? He said it is inconclusive one time at the end. He said they don't hate cb's. He said that fatigue, over use and bad mechanics are the main culprits in arm injury.

He never said it was OK for young kids to throw cb's. Not once in the version I listened to. They recommeded to not throw breaking balls until a kid shaves about 5-6 times. Breaking balls increase pain in the joints. How can that be good?

Where did anyone get that it is OK from this presentation? From a couple of small studies that were inconclusive?

Wow, I am more convinced than ever. Fatigue, overuse, and bad mechanics are number 1,2 and 3. Breaking balls are also a concern and shouldn't be thrown until the bones are set. They made that very, very, clear to me. They also said a kid who throws over 80 is much more at risk but that is not a problem. Yet.

ditto D-Man where is the proof that curves are safer than FB`s.If you follow there advice throw no more than 50 pitches a game and no more than 200 per season.I think somebody has been looking for a
study to back there own belief`s.And if they really
cared what the scientific studys have been saying for 20 years youths throwing CB`S ARE NOT GOOD.No
where does ASMI ever say anything to dispute this.

Look back to my post several posts ago. Dr. Glenn Fleisig stated in that post that "The research implies that amount of pitching is much more important than types of pitches." That is directly from him.

Also, they do say in the presentation that those that threw curveballs in a game were more likely to experience some pain. The survey (it was a survey, not a study) does not break down the specifics of what went on during the pitching outing. In other words, it is possible that the pitcher who only threw fastballs, only pitched 30 pitches and the pitcher who threw curveballs threw 90 pitches. That might not be the case, but it might very well be the case. There was also no evidence that shows that if you throw a curveball, you are more likely to need surgery.

The biomechanical study they did showed that the curveball puts less force on the arm than a fastball.

I, like you, heard over and over that you should wait to throw a curveball. But when it came down to it, both Dr. Andrews and Dr. Fleisig stated that the amount of and frequency of pitching overall is much more important than whether or not you throw a curveball.

If you all go back to the original post it was regarding the poster watching a game where 12 year olds were 40-50% in a game.
The whole key is in moderation, not necessarily what pitch is thrown, but how much in a game and how often the young pitcher takes to the mound. The whole problem with the CB is the success younger players find with it, then it becomes their steady diet. In this day and age of youth travel ball, pitchers more and more than before. It takes YEARS to develop proper mechanics, yet we see 12 year olds throwing 3 different pitches in games. Those three different pitches means lots of practice as well. At 12 mine had 2 pitches, FB and CU, that was enough to work on until 14 when he was introduced to the CB. The whole thing is about using common sense.

As far as this new scientific conclusion, it most likely will change. The only constant factor in all of their studies has been ONE thing, excess.

No matter which way one views it, throwing a baseball in an unnatural motion and LOTS of different factors come into play regarding an individual pitchers injury.

I agree with you TPM. My son is 15. He has been pitching since he was 8. At 10 he was throwing a fastball and change up with a lot of success. At 11 he modified his grip and started throwing a breaking ball. I had a number of coaches and pitching coaches watch and make sure it wasn't going to be bad on his arm. His pitching coach (currently pitching coach for AA team) called this pitch a cut fastball. I'm not sure because the pitch moves away and down on a righty (he's a righty). He has never had any pain in his arm or elbow.

The biggest thing we do with him is keep pitch counts, take him out when he begins to tire and make sure he gets plenty of rest between outings. I think that is the biggest reason he has remained injury free. If he pitches to the point of fatigue, he will not throw off a mound for at least 3 full days, usually more.

Coaches need to know their pitchers. Never let them throw when they have tired, always let them get their rest between outings. Believe me, we have lost a number games because we took him off the mound either because of pitch count, or because he was tiring. You can't get so caught up in the game that you let a kid suffer to try to win a game especially before high school. It means nothing at that point. I have seen coaches let their pitchers go forever and just wonder what is going to happen to that kid as he gets older.

Bottom line is, it is amount of pitching and lack of recovery time that are the biggest culprits.

Common sense tells you that if a CB is less stressful you can throw more pitches. Also genetics plays a part in the ability to throw a lot of pitches along with great mechanics. When my son got tired he stopped throwing his FB. His own opinion was that the FB was more stressful on his arm than his offspeeds. The latest findings by ASMI state that they tried to find a direct link between CBs and injury and couldn't. They found no evidence that the CB put stress on the elbow etc. The MLB CB has wrist snap in a tomahawk motion and should not stress the arm aswell.
Typical LL CBs have a sweeping 12-6 motion and the ML CB has a late break motion whuch was taught to my son at 15 by the head scout of the Jays at a camp he ran in the winter here. The 1st time I researched CBs was reading Tom House Pitchers Edgdge series and he also said the CB was not a dangerous pitch. My daughters boy fiend taught my son the LL CB and he was a MLB prospect . He also said that CB was not stressful. My son used to mix in a FB or a modified circle change once in a while but if he was tired he stuck to off speed pitches. This allowed him to pitch longer than he could otherwise. In fact if he had to rely on his FB he probably wouldn't be a pitcher today.

My son would pull himself if he didn't feel 100%.

OK look, this can get swept into 1000 tangents but here's why it's 'confusing':

There are 2 separate studies performed by ASMI which (on the surface) seem to conclude opposite things.

STUDY 1: Kinematic comparison of various types of pitches
LINK: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/various_types.htm
Conclusion: "this study did not offer any credence to a common belief of many coaches that throwing a curveball is more stressful to the throwing arm compared to throwing a fastball."

STUDY 2: Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers
LINK: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/elbshopain.htm
Conclusions:
(a) "Pitchers in the 9-14 age bracket who threw sliders were 86% more likely to experience elbow pain during the season. Pitchers who threw curveballs were 56% more likely to experience shoulder pain during the season."
(b) "as pitch counts increased, the number of cases of shoulder and elbow pain also increased. At the 75-99 pitch count range, the risk of shoulder and elbow pain increased by 52% and 35% respectively."

So, it may seem the good Dr.'s are confused. On the one hand, they say it is less stressful to throw a breaking ball than a fastball; on the other hand they note higher incidences of pain in young pitchers who throw breakers.

I would suggest that neither study is conclusive or complete. They are good for what they are. Telling us that 9u-14u pitchers throwing sliders have higher incidences of reported pain is interesting, but does not necessarily relate to injury. It does not account for mechanical differences (is a well-throw curve ok? They don't know).

But on the flip side, the first study does not mean go throw as many breaking balls as you like. It is simply a kinematic study measuring pressure on elbow and shoulder joints. It also does not suggest that injury is LESS likely. That was not part of the study.

So, to folks who rely on the first study to justify their 10u pitcher throwing 70% breaking balls- you are overstating your case. This study does not repudiate previous research, it just gives us all something to think about.

And to folks who use the second study to conclude that curveballs=arm surgery/problems, you are also overstating your case. The research simply doesn't show breaking balls to be as bad for pitchers as some believe.

I didn't use either study to conclude that CBs were safe. The latter findings are more recent and were conducted specifically to try and prove a link. They concluded that there was no link.
I based my opinion on Tom House and his pitchers edge series and my son's assessment of what was hard on his arm. I also had great advice from his doctor who was a pitching coach with the Rangers and collaborated with House/Ryan on that series of books.
ASMI seemed to reach a conclusion in the eary studies before they did the research. I think they were surprised at their findinds in the latest research.

Makes a lot of sense Xtreme. Although I think throwing a curveball is not as bad as some think, I would never have a pitcher throw 70% breaking balls. Got to mix it up.

Take a look at Adam Loewen. A 95-96 mph LHP. He is not able to pitch anymore. A 3.2 million dollar bonus and a 4 million 4 year contract and he is finished. He has been plaued with arm problems for years.

quote:

No matter which way one views it, throwing a baseball in an unnatural motion

Apparently this one has been called into question as well. I'll have to get the name of the guy who believes it from my high school coach, but this guy doesn't believe throwing a baseball is unnatural. My high school coach and I were talking about it in the weight room yesterday.

All of these studies are nice, small but nice, but it comes down to your own personal experience whether you are pro or con on the cb debate. My son has shown me his cb and it is late breaking and nasty without a snap to it. Having huge hands help with spin. But he is not throwing it in a game or bullpen. He was shown how to properly throw one by his teams pitching coach and I am sure he would be the strike out king if he threw it. But he isn't done growing yet so it can wait.

I know that I can throw batting practice fastballs for 2-3 hours without any joint pain, just fatigue and muscle soreness. I can throw cb's for about 20 minutes before my elbow hurts and I lose all control over all of my throws. I assume my son has similar genetics to me(at least that is what my wife says) so no cb's for MY son until he starts shaving. In my opinion only, he needs to work on velocity, accurracy and the cu. He can get outs with those any day. We will just add pitches to his repetoire as he gets older and I think he can handle it.

We will err on the side of caution. What's the rush?

Believe me, I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything they don't want to do. I am all for you holding off with your son, Doughnutman. I won't try to convince you otherwise. All I was trying to do was point out what the guys at ASMI were saying.

It's really kind of like the old egg debate. They used to be good for you, then they were bad, now they are good again. Probably never know for sure.

I do believe genetics have a lot to do with it. Minimize your risks by limiting overuse - should be universal. Beyond that, it's up to the individual.

FYI
I started a poll in general discussion.

I'd be curious to see what age the kids are to see if there is a generational gap. Plus, kids who hurt their arms and aren't playing baseball anymore, probably don't have their parents coming to this site.

I am still curious to see the results.

What we have to go on is our own personal experiences. What have we actually seen during the course of our time in and around the game? What have people told us? What have we actually experienced?

I have never seen a young kid develop a good healthy arm with above average velocity that threw curveballs at a young age. Never. I have seen many youth stud pitchers that did in fact throw curveballs that never pitched in hs.

Why take the risk if you do not know? What is gained from throwing breaking balls at a young age other than fooling young hitters and winning youth games? What is the rush?

Young arms should be developed over time with the emphasis on proper throwing mechanics. There arms are not ready for the stress of throwing breaking balls. They dont learn how to actually pitch. Do what you want to do with your kid. But if you dont allow breaking balls what have you lost. And if you do are you ready to assume the responsibility if it goes wrong? Will you wonder if that arm problem was a result of your decision to allow it? Will you wonder if he inability to develop velocity as he gets older was a result?

Why take the risk? Is it that important to be a 12 year old stud pitcher who fools youth hitters?