Doughnutman:

What you say is true but the original post came off to me as a little too much "take your medicine kid"...

Any good coach pushes players to learn the game and needs to push them beyond their comfort zone to do that effectively. I just wanted to add to the conversation that it is important to keep their goals in mind and not come off as "Well, I know better than all you whippersnappers, so you will strike out and like it! Cuz' it's good for ya!"

Brussel Sprouts were probably good for me, but I still faked eating them when I was a kid and played brussel sprout basketball from the kitchen table to the kitchen sink...

I hear you extreme. It is always difficult to tell nuance from the typed word. If I was good at it I would be writing the next great american novel.

Our guys are about as far from the "whippersnappers" type as a coaching staff can get. We just don't mind if they fail on occaision. Our only goals are(and I have typed them many times):

1. Have fun.
2. Get better.
3. Stay healthy.

Winning usually takes care of itself and we win our share of tournaments. The entire coaching staff has the above goals along with the ultimate goal of getting them as prepared as possible for HS. The parents are also on board. It is a great situation and I am very thankful to be involved in it.

To get back on topic, our top five pitchers all rely on the fastball for outs. 2 of them, not my son, throw a curveball 1-2 times an inning. Their parents are OK with it now that we are 14U. Just goes to show you that on the same team you can have differences of opinion and still get along.

What interests me is that the most renowned authority on throwing injuries tells you something and you guys still don't accept it.Many have a belief system and this goes against evrything you believe and have taugh.
All my son's pitching teammates all threw CBs at 10yo and most are playing college ball with little or no arm issues. My son swears the FB was harder on his arm. He is 22yo and never had a problem. His hard throwing teammates have all had problems and several do not pitch anymore. One pitched in D1 and he was medical red shirted twice.

You objectives are very nice for rec ball but I would have a hard time with a team that didn't demand excellece from the players. Fun is the result of being excellent at what you do.

Well Bobblehead,
That is the funny thing about scientific studies. They tend to change over time. You never know and every kid is different. Maybe the difference in arm injuries is something little like max effort pitchers get hurt the most and what they throw and how often doesn't mean a thing. Get them all to throw at 90% and all of the injuries go away. How you can judge that I don't know.

And we are far from a rec league team. Never confuse fun with mediocrity. We just try our best to avoid burnout in kids that play national level tournament ball 9 months a year. We aren't the best team in the nation, but we can compete with anybody.

No doubt "overuse" is the main reason for injury. That problem exists in one form or another in almost every sport from marathon runners, to gymnist growth plate issues, cyclist with hip problems, swimmers with shoulder issues, etc.

Couple points that I've noticed in my limited tenure as a ball coach at the youth levels:
1 - Strike zones are "loose" for the younger ages. Coaches know this. So, when they observe an umpire with a loose zone, they will throw the kid with the breaking ball more frequently. We played everywhere from East Cobb to Florida and most umps at 11U are giving the pitchers at least 6 inches on both sides of the plate.

2 - Back to the original poster's point: "Stupid Coaches" is kinda harsh, but I think he's referring only to those that have no regard for a players wellfare. If a kid has a breaking ball that he can throw for a strike, the coach is likely to call that pitch. And he's likely to call that pitch more often. And if the pitcher is having success in a tournament game, the coach is not likely to pull him until the kid is tired. That's the primary reason I don't want my own kid throwing the breaking ball. If a coach knows he has it, the coach is going to use it frequently. And likely use it until the kid gets fatigued. Just came from a WS tournament in Florida where the tournament winning team pitched their breaking ball throwing 11U pitcher 16 innings over 3 days. Proper curve ball techniques don't matter when an 11 year old kid has to pitch that much. Its too much. I think its these type coaches that the original poster was referring to.

So yes, throwing too much is the main reason for injury, but having a successful breaking ball at a young age might actually worsen the former issue if the team has a "stupid coach"...

How did we (old timers) ever survive without all the rules and regulations we see now. Back i the neanthedral days we played every day on the sandlots. the equipment was not inspected. the fields had rocks broken glass. Cant remember wearing a helmet. Played till it was dark. If you had a curve ball you threw it because nobody could hit a good one. We all survived. many of us played high school a some college and 1 played some professionally. How did that happen?

I think the main difference is, back in the day, if you hurt your arm you just stopped playing or pitching instead of going to a doctor to get surgery. It was more a case of genetics than care.

I think reporting injuries along with having the surgical/rehab option have a lot to do with today's increased numbers.

Growing up, I never heard of one kid in another town who hurt his arm but I knew a few who stopped playing/pitching because of it in my town.

quote:

Originally posted by RETIRED GM:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
There's nothing prettier than a hanging curve being knocked out of sight on the second pitch of the game by a lefty off a dumbass lefthanded pitcher who thinks he can fool him with a hook.

LOL

I learned this hitting approach by being the dumbass lefty pitcher. I had one hammered so far it was a "three point homer." It sailed through the goal posts on the football field behind the rightfield fence. If you want to see how far the ball went, do a Google Earth on Hadlock Field (Portland Seadogs) in Portland, Maine. They haven't moved home plate or the goal posts since I threw the pitch. If you look up the ball is still in orbit thirty-five years later.

You can debate the wheres and whys but the fact is that ASMI reported their finding based on case studies. The fact is based on real life cases that more guys had surgury due to over use and FB. Not CBs as many believe.
There are more cases mainly due to the fact that new techniques can restor normal function of the throwing arm. Medicine has come a long way in all fields.

I Googled ASMI=American sports medicine institute & found an article at the top the page called Arm pain in youth pitchers, "the major fidings of the study were;
*the incidence of elbow or schoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a game.
*the incidence of elbow or shoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a season.
*pitchers who threw curveballs or sliders had greater incidence of pain than those who did`nt.
*no relationship between poor mechanics and increased risk of pain could be established.

based upon the results from this study,it is recommended pitchers between 9 and 14 years old
do not throw curveball or slider.These pitchers should utilize the fastball and change up exclusively.It goes on to talk about pitch counts.

Bobblehead is this the ASMI you are talking about?

quote:

Originally posted by westcoastbuckeye:
I Googled ASMI=American sports medicine institute & found an article at the top the page called Arm pain in youth pitchers, "the major fidings of the study were;
*the incidence of elbow or schoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a game.
*the incidence of elbow or shoulder pain increased with the # of pitches thrown in a season.
*pitchers who threw curveballs or sliders had greater incidence of pain than those who did`nt.
*no relationship between poor mechanics and increased risk of pain could be established.

based upon the results from this study,it is recommended pitchers between 9 and 14 years old
do not throw curveball or slider.These pitchers should utilize the fastball and change up exclusively.It goes on to talk about pitch counts.

Bobblehead is this the ASMI you are talking about?

Good post, WCB.

ASMI Article

I've seen that. However, in ASMI's presentation to Little League Baseball in which they advocate for the pitch count rules, you can see through out the presentation, the speakers say that youth pitchers should not throw a curve ball. However, when they present their studies, they sort of stutter, hem and haw and say that there really is no evidence that throwing the curve ball is more stressful on the arm. It is almost like they are wanting to stick to the old addage that a curve ball is bad, but they can't prove it. Here is a link to the presentation:
www.littleleague.org/pitchcount/pitchpresentation.htm

They talk about doing a biomechanical study on the forces placed on the arm while throwing a fastball, changeup and a curveball. The study specifically shows that fastball is the hardest on the arm, curveball is second and changeup is easiest.

That is the ASMI I refer to and there latest finds cannot establish a link between CBs and arm injury. They have only recently actually tried to find the link to arm injury and the results contradict there old theories. actually they would recommend that you don't pitch period or even throw a BB. We are talkinmg about comparative evils if you will. CBs and especially LL CBs thrown without the tomahawk action are safer than any other pitch. I posted a video of my son throwing it and you could clearly see that it wasn't stressfull on his arm.
You cannot group sliders with CBs.

bobblehead I cannot find the study you are talking about.Everything they have found goes against what you say your son did as a youth pitcher.Why you use
ASMI to back the way your son played as a youth is beyond me, but thanks for turning me on to a wonderful resource that cements the fact that youths
should not throw curveballs until they shave.

BBman put a link to a dicussion that bears me out on the CB. I attribute his survival without injury even when over used to the fact that he threw very few FBs and his mechanics. I know I have had this argument way too many times to think I can cnvince you. There have been numerous discussions and several kowledgeable posters over the years who have also had the same results.
A thread had alluded to the latest opinions several times and people surprised by ASMIs new take on the subject.

Here is a comment from the thread from someone who found the infp and did read it:

Another of the non-intuitive revelations that recently came out of ASMI was: Throwing breaking balls does not seem to correlate with youth pitcher injuries--at least in the studies conducted so far--despite a tremendous amount of 'common baseball wisdom' to the contrary. In fact, Fleisig and Andrews specifically looked for that correlation, hypothesizing ahead of time that it would be found. However, when the presumed correlation was not found, they were good enough scientists to report their findings without bias.

in that survey the #1 enemy of youth pitching was throwing too many pitches.Yet you talk about having your son pitching way past fatigue, how does this strenghen your argument, I do not see how you can use the ASMI to back your argument. Dr. Drisko from
ASMI recommends waiting until a player needs to shave before throwing his first curveball.Also the research for the survey was paid for by little league right after they received some bad publicity
about youths throwing too many curves ie; LLWS.

quote:

What interests me is that the most renowned authority on throwing injuries tells you something and you guys still don't accept it.

From a book I read once:

Expert: pronounced: ex + spurt. As anybody knows, an "ex" is a has been; a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.


There is also one so-called expert now saying that ball players should play catch yearround. That there is no need to take a couple months off.

I finally broke down and went to asmi

No curveballs age 9-12
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/elbshopain.htm

Am I missing something or is there another part of the site that says it is OK for kids to throw curve balls? I read most of the articles(slow work day).

Below is a paste from a forum discussion on the ASMI website. It includes a question from a member and a response from Dr. Fleisig with ASMI. Dr. Fleisig gives the same link to the site that I gave in my earlier post.

Here is a link to the page with the below paste:

http://asmiforum.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=youth&...ay&thread=288&page=4



jdee
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Re: Discussion about Pitch Counts for Youth Pitche
« Reply #47 on Aug 28, 2007, 10:45am »

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Dr. Fleisig, just wanted to get your comments on the litte league world series. It seems the pitch counts are now enforced in the series, but don't you think that kids throwing almost half of their pitches as curve balls or sliders is worse on thier arm than a high number of pitches?

JDee
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Glenn Fleisig, Ph.D.
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Re: Discussion about Pitch Counts for Youth Pitche
« Reply #48 on Aug 29, 2007, 10:47am »

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JDee,

That's a reasonable thought, but the current research is not pointing in that direction. The research implies that amount of pitching is much more important than types of pitches. If you have the time, you might want to click here to watch the presentation Dr. Andrews and I gave to Little League.
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Sounds like they can't make up their own minds. I would like to see the newer study that is "pointing in that direction" because the one on their web site says no curve balls age 9-12.