How long has LL allowed "Travel Teams" to compete in the LLWS ? I was under the impression that they encouraged individual League All-Star teams to compete. The team from Nevada has allegedly been together 4 years now and has competed in a number of tournaments together. I don't mean to single them out but as they won @ CDP earlier this summer it is pretty easy to verify.

This has taken place in the LLWS for some time now. The majority of the American finalists over the last handful of years have been travel teams. While some may not think that this is the natural order of things, all of the international teams are hand-picking their players and competing together well in advance of the LLWS.

Little League is organized on a geographic basis, and members of the All Star team all have to come from the same league. There is no prohibition against a group of 8 year olds in Anywhere, USA starting to play together on a travel team. By the time they are 12, the members of that group, perhaps slightly altered each previous year, are very likely the stars of that Little League.

Such a team does have an advantage over the All Star teams that have been picked in the usual way -- which usually is partially a popularity contest among the coaches and board members. It is actually fairly difficult to identify the best players in a league since the competition is so spotty. A travel team will be battle tested, and the best players from that geographic area are more easily and accurately identified.

But perhaps some of the players don't really live in the town of Anywhere, USA......

3FG,

Does LL have a rule that you have to play in a certain amount of local games to be eligible for that leagues all star team?...

Not being familiar with LL, I dont know...

3fg,
Not so according to LL Tourney rules and I quote
"Tournament Team Practice
Little League Baseball, Junior/Senior/Big League Baseball: Try-outs or practices by
tournament teams shall not be held before June 15. Tournament team practice may only
take place against other players in the same league and division, providing such practice is
done out of uniform. (Little League accident insurance for tournament teams will not go into
effect until June 15, or the date of the release of the names of Tournament Team members,
whichever is later)."

While I understand your point, it appears LL is saying one thing but allowing another. They couldn't possibly afford to lose the goodwill (and league fees) of all the poor saps that follow LL to the letter of the law. ESPN/ABC has helped create this monster, it's time to call it what it is and end the charade. Using the International teams to justify this ruse is quite a lame excuse. Just cause their doing it doesn't make it ok. Open it up to all, lose the outdated boundry junk, play on a field of appropriate size, and have a real "World Series" tournament.

piaa_ump,

As I recall, a player has to have participated in half of his team's regular season games to be eligible for All-Star play. Players who are on a scholastic team or are injured during part of the season need only play half of the games for which they are eligible/healthy.

Yankeelvr,

I'm aware of the rule. I think you are reading more into it than is actually written. For this rule to have the effect you desire, there would need to be a definition of "tournament team" which is different and more detailed than simply the roster declared by the BOD on June 15.

For example, if two players named to the All Star team come from the same regular season team, have they broken the rule against practicing before June 15? If, as is typical, most of the members of last year's 11 year old All Star team are named to this year's 12 year old team, have they broken the rule by playing and practicing together last summer?

Obviously LL can't preclude the formation of a travel team, independent of LL, Inc, which is made up of the best players from the league's geographic area.

I also think it is clear that Little League intends that the All Star team to be made up of the best players from the geographic area. Likely there will be considerable overlap on the rosters.

If LL wants something else, they would need to construct a considerably more elaborate rule.

Putting a team of 8 yr olds together who just happen to become the 12 yr old All-Star team may not technically break the rule, it surely bends the heck out of the spirit of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Open it up to all, lose the outdated boundry junk, play on a field of appropriate size, and have a real "World Series" tournament.

In some parts of the country, this format is called USSSA baseball. Two things are lacking compared to the LL World Series -- substantial international participation and coverage by ESPN. I'm not sure why LL would adopt this format: the recreational aspect would be lost, and without the local hook, who would want to watch?

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
In some parts of the country, this format is called USSSA baseball. Two things are lacking compared to the LL World Series -- substantial international participation and coverage by ESPN. I'm not sure why LL would adopt this format: the recreational aspect would be lost, and without the local hook, who would want to watch?

This, in a nutshell, clearly states my problem with LL. They are selling a Travel Baseball tournament, and making good money off it, by using the recreational aspect and local hook. Years of tradition soiled.

I seem to remember hearing A New York team say so often that they had played over 100 games that season and had won several non-LL tournaments, I thought that was not right back then. Then we found out that they may have altered some birth certificates and who knows where they actually lived.

Our LL was very specific about not letting the "district" team play before a certain date, but I had seen other district teams do that. What they have done, was to form a travel team that is not affiliated with the LL group and went out to play tournaments under their own insurance, etc.

With the advent of travel teams taking away many of the top players from the local leagues, most LL's will not see a group that chooses to stay around and play the LL season, so I actually applaud those groups of kids that stick around and support their local community, most would not given that fact that the play tends to be much lower that true travel team tournaments.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
This, in a nutshell, clearly states my problem with LL. They are selling a Travel Baseball tournament, and making good money off it, by using the recreational aspect and local hook. Years of tradition soiled.

I want to be very sure I understand what you’re saying here. It sounds as though you’re condemning LL Inc, and accusing them of allowing all AS teams to be little more than academy or club teams.

As far as the RECREATIONAL aspect goes, that pretty much ends when the TOC’s are finished. After that, the teams really are essentially nothing more than select/travel/tournament or whatever teams, with the main difference being that the geographical and population boundaries theoretically limit the number of players eligible.

How everything shakes out depends entirely on how the league administrators allow the teams to be chosen. There is certainly a lot more than 1 way to pick the players on the AS teams. If everyone did it exactly the same way and it was based on total objectivity, I suspect that the majority of LL Inc, AS teams would look different, and there would be a lot less acrimony.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Just cause their doing it doesn't make it ok. Open it up to all, lose the outdated boundry junk, play on a field of appropriate size, and have a real "World Series" tournament.

Bravo Yankeelvr! Ditto, ditto, ditto...you're 100% correct. And about field size; it's ridiculous. These kids are so much bigger today with a ton of talent playing on mini fields...no wonder stealing isn't allowed...lol.

quote:

Originally posted by CapitalBaseball:
Bravo Yankeelvr! Ditto, ditto, ditto...you're 100% correct. And about field size; it's ridiculous. These kids are so much bigger today with a ton of talent playing on mini fields...no wonder stealing isn't allowed...lol.

Why punish the 90% of the kids who play on a field perfectly suited to them, so the top 10% of the kids will look even that much better in comparison.

I’d much rather see all those studly dudes move on to some other organization. That would make a lot more PT available for kids who really need it, and chances are, a lot of the studs would soon find out that they’d much rather go back to where they could be the stud again, rather than just another player.

Skeep,

To me, that 90% are the ones being shortchanged under the current way things are. I would much rather see LL give the tourney back to the kids who put the time in rather than just meeting the 60% rule (maybe) in order to qualify. There are plenty of travel opportunities outside LL, most of the studs parents wouldn't give a hoot if ESPN / ABC wasn't there, some just have to have their cake and eat it too. And LL seems to go along so US teams remain competitive (and ratings stay high).

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Skeep,

To me, that 90% are the ones being shortchanged under the current way things are. I would much rather see LL give the tourney back to the kids who put the time in rather than just meeting the 60% rule (maybe) in order to qualify. There are plenty of travel opportunities outside LL, most of the studs parents wouldn't give a hoot if ESPN / ABC wasn't there, some just have to have their cake and eat it too. And LL seems to go along so US teams remain competitive (and ratings stay high).

It sounds like you are faulting LL for having a good marketing program and that they have the exposure on TV that other organizations do not.

Before travel ball came along there were only a few organizations that the youth could play in, some were dictated by location and others were by choice. LL happen to get the prize and the exposure, is it the best baseball, most likely not and is getting worst since the better players are mostly going to travel even from say Pony and Cal Ripken.

The rules are what they are, what I did not like was the change of the birthdate rule, I actually thought it went the wrong way, but other organizations also went that direction as well, so be it.

If a local group happens to get a set of kids who decide to make a run at the LL WS and they play by the rules (having legal players by geography and age) why question it? If we don't like it, we just have to turn off the TV and the ESPN's will not support it, but I happen to like watching it, again is it the best baseball, not close but it is fun to watch the players and families in the stands.

Is televising 12 yr old baseball good marketing ? What do they have this year, 50 some games ? Years ago, just a few games, it was special. More isn't always better.

When we used to look at the economics of a little league, guess who pay the bills, 13-18 year olds or the 7-12 year olds.

I am sure there are a lot of 8-12 year olds that are glued to the TV (ESPN if they have cable/dish) right now and will next week, there are also a lot of parents of 8-12 year olds watching with them with dreams of their kid playing in Williamsport.

How many do you think watched the Cape Cod HS All Star game on the internet or AFLAC on Fox this last Saturday? These are some of the best HS players in the country. Dodger Stadium looked pretty empty (though large).

There must be economics to expand to more games on TV....

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Is televising 12 yr old baseball good marketing ? What do they have this year, 50 some games ? Years ago, just a few games, it was special. More isn't always better.

Well, I’m 61 and my son hasn’t played in LL Inc for almost 10 years, and so far I’ve tuned in at least partially to all but one of the games so far. Tonight I flipped back and forth from the Indians/Orioles game to the Pa/Ma game, and was very happy to be able to watch both.

Don’t try to superimpose your likes and desires into the marketing mix if they don’t coincide with what ESPN’s marketing team tell them! Trust me, they know a lot more about sports marketing than either you or I.

Little League will be considered a "Cum-ba-yah" league compared to the more advanced USSSA, Super Series, Nations Baseball etc. until it moves past the 60 ft bases/205 ft. fences/no lead off system. Kids at 12 are way more advanced than LL, and while it makes for great theatrics on TV with the kids jacking HR's with ease, the fact is that LL is not the best league in the grand scheme of things. Playing against LL's in a USSSA setting, the teams are of different ilk.

I hope that Little League comes of age, such that they have the ability to compare their talent to kids of other leagues where the rules/structure are more advanced.

This is no knock on LL kids, as I believe they have common talent. yet I believe they have been "restricted" in an antiquated organizational structure which I, as a kid, grew up with 30 years ago.

quote:

This is no knock on LL kids, as I believe they have common talent. yet I believe they have been "restricted" in an antiquated organizational structure which I, as a kid, grew up with 30 years ago.

Seamhead4Ever, this is a GREAT post... You said it all...