PG is 100% correct. Can you play the game? That will be the only thing that ultimately matters. Size is great if you can play. It means nothing if you can not. Not being a big kid means nothing if you can play. I have said this before and I truly believe it "Small kids have to prove they can play, Big kids have to prove they can not". But it really ends up being the same thing in the end. Can you play the game? If you can not it never mattered. If you can it wont matter.

fanofgame,
whoa, calm down.

In this age of PEDs, IMO, telling a player they need to get bigger and stronger sends the wrong message.
How about this, Matt: we do beleive that working with a strength trainer may help (benefit) your physical development....blah, blah you can fill in the blanks.

If it were my son I would put my $$ not into getting him bigger and stronger, but concentrate on developing skills from this point forward and let nature take its course. Of course conditioning is important, seems like you have done that. But you seem hung up on his "lack of weight" which in not uncommon. I am not sure if I caught what grade he was in, but you mention year or two so I assume he has time to improve his skills and mature physically. I understand his dream is to play D1 college ball.
A player will play at that level if they have the skills for that level, that's it period.

If you read carefully, I think that is what has been mentioned in this discussion, over and over, bottom line, you have to prove that you can play above anything else.

njbb just mentioned that her son was 5'11" and 150 when drafted out of HS. Obviously, no one thought his size (same as BBR which he feels is a problem) had anything to do with his ability.

fan-
Did you read my previous post? I know the page turned right after my post.
It has be discussed over and over on these forums about size and strength. My earlier point was that your son has a predisposed genetic code that dictates his height and weight at maturation.
When he reachs that time in his growth, then he may have to adjust his diet to either gain, maintain, or loose weight depending on his lifestyle.
Until he reaches that plateau of maturity, I think it will be hard for him to put on pounds until that time. Skills however can constantly be worked on and improved. The size and weight will come. As I said before, it is this constant obession or concern that an athlete needs to be bigger and stonger before he is ready is the main force that drives kids, young men, and adults to turn to illegal methods to attain this goal. Be patient - look to the future at what this player may look like at 21.

Coaches are always going to want their players to work at getting bigger stronger and faster. When they see a kid that has some tools and he may be a little small maybe a little weak what are they supposed to say? Stay as small as you can. Dont work to get bigger stronger and faster. Of course they want kids to get stronger and faster. You hit it harder and you get there faster. It does not mean you can not play the game. It just means you will play it better if you get stronger and faster.

Why do college programs have weight training and conditioning programs? Why do they teach proper nutrition? They want their players to get stronger and faster. Now wouldnt they want them to come into the program as far along in that process as possible?

It also speaks to the dedication of the athlete prior to entering a college program. If he does not work out and strive very hard to condition before he comes to college. Will he be able to handle the rigors that will be much greater in college? The time to prepare for college baseball does not happen when you step on the college campus. Nor does the time to prepare for HS baseball start when you enter HS. It starts way before you get there.

Kids that can play and work at the game are fine. It always seems to work out for the ones that take care of business when no one is watching.

Your an athlete. Your goal should be to get as fast as you possibly can. As strong as you possibly can. As agile as you possibly can. As athletic as you possibly can. Why? Because this will help you be a better player. You work on your baseball related skills constantly. To improve your baseball skills. Hit , throw , catch , field , pitch etc etc.

Now taking ground balls over and over again will make you a better fielder if your using proper fielding techniques. But will taking ground balls over and over again allow you to get to that ball in the hole? What if your 1 tenth of a second faster? Can you get to it now? How many plays are bang bang at the bag? Now you can make plays you couldnt make before. What about the outfielder that cant quite make that play? What if he was just a little bit quicker or faster? Now he can make that play. Or the warning track shot that is caught for an out. But your a little stronger and that same shot clears the wall for a HR. If everyone on the team gets a little bit stronger , a little bit faster , a little bit more athletic our team just got a whole lot better.

Your in HS now. You not a little boy that has to wait to get his man body. You have to work really hard to build your body. You have to work to get faster , stronger , more athletic. If you wait for that to happen and dont work at it you may find yourself in a mans body but baseball time has passed you by.

Im not talking about PED's. Come on do we have to continue to beat that dead horse here. You do not have to use PED's to vastly improve your speed , strength and agility. 18 year old men that work their butts off at getting stronger faster and more athletic that have ability on the diamond absolutely dominate 18 year old men that are waiting for nature to take its course even if they have ability.

We started a strength and conditioning program that focuses on Core Training , Speed Training , Strength Training and Agility Training 6 years ago. We went from hitting 8 or 9 hrs a year to setting the school record for HR's the last three years with 29 , 30 , 37. We have won the conference 4 of 5 years and tied for first the other. We have had two guys drafted and 3 top tier D-1 recruits not to mention several move on to D-2 and D-3. We are so much more athletic , stronger and faster. And we have so much more confidence and mental toughness. We start in July and run it to the start of the HS season in Feb.

You sit around and wait for nature to take its course. We will continue to outwork everyone. My guys only have four short years in HS. There is no time to waist hoping that nature takes it course. Why cant a 15 year old learn how to train? Eat properly? And work to be the absolute best athlete he can be?

PED's? Thats cheating. So if you push your players to be the best they can be somehow you are insinuating to them that you want them to cheat? No you want them to work! I hope my competition sits around and waits for their guys to become men. They might be great softball players in the local church league when they get that man body naturally without hard work one day. But they wont compete with us when it matters.

There are alot of talented players that are just naturally talented. They dont work out and they let nature take its course. Then they play guys with as much talent but work their butts off. And they go home wondering why they got crushed. And "I think they are on steroids". I got a couple of players that the local rivals parents accused of being on steroids. They are big strong boys who can play. No we are not on PEDs. We are on WORK. You are not on PEDs. You are on LAZY. Thats what I told their parents after we 10 runned them for the second time in the year.

This post is not directed at anyone in particular. And I am not trying to be an a**. You can probaly tell I believe in working hard and training hard and being the best you can be. I do not believe that it just happens. I primed tobacco from 6am to 7pm everyday but Sunday every summer of my life from the time I was 11 years old. That was way harder than anything I can put a 15-18 year old through 2 hours five days a week. It didnt hurt me too bad.

CM,
I agree with you.

But somehow I cannot see you telling a player the above that fan claims was in the evaluation. I perceive you to be a lot more tactful.

Every coach wants their players to get bigger and stronger so they can perform at their highest level.
But, IMO, for many it's a work in progress and most know that nature has to take it's course. There is a difference in conditioning and the work you speak of to improve upon one's game. For the player that has trouble gaining weight this usually does not interfere with their ability to perform.

A good example of what I am trying to convey, we both know of a player (OF now will be a starting pitcher)from NC who went to a top D1 at 6' and still is 160 soaking wet. He got there on his ability, not because he was underweight for his age and height. He will eventually, like mine, put on weight as his body matures to the point where the constant battle of trying to maintain will begin to gain.

I'll end it at that. Maybe I just don't get it.

Im with you TPM. Sometimes you know I start rambling and get on my soap box.

I agree.

Coach May-
Of course all that you say seems to be right.
In my posts, anyway, I was not illuding to the fact that any player should "wait" for strength or size to come, only that our genetics have already been planned and everyone's growth occurs when nature dictates. Working on stength and conditioning will only help when that growth process kicks in.
Physical workouts and mental development prior to this process will put an athlete at a true advantage.

On the other hand, when we are telling younger, under developed players that they need to get bigger and stronger, this should include a work ethic and not an idea that working to become bigger and stronger happens overnightor that artificial help is needed. Some guys will work a very long time at it before nature kicks in and helps out. Some sooner than later. I come from a large family of athletes encompasing many of the major sports. They all matured at differnt times before or after puberty. There was no one rule. My sister's grand daughter is three years old and is taller than the kindergarten class her cousin is in. (Her dad is 6'7"), almost everyone she meets thinks she is way older than she is based on her size - she certainly does not communicate like a kindergartener.

Working hard is always a great way of life, physically and mentally. Expecting to make yourself be taller before your body is ready by any means is unrealistic, kids get taller by their genetic code, they get bigger aned stonger by working out.

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballRulz1789:
Thank you all for your great insight, I really am appreciating it. I will prove all of the naysayers wrong someday.

Rulz,
I am a CT State American Legion Baseball Commission Member - Most State runs an American Legion Showcase toward the end of the season. In CT we get a number of colleges to come down and look at the players. Check with your Legion coach if NH has a showcase. If you have problems finding out Email me at pattersonsports@yahoo.com.

iheartbb I agree totally with your post. No disagreement from me on that at all. Fan I hope it all works out for your son. Any level of baseball past HS is a tremendous achievement. I wish you guys the best.

Coach May, thank you for your excellent post. You told it like it is. Either you put in the hard work and get bigger, stronger and faster, or you fall behind and get out worked by the competition. There are many many great programs that build muscle, speed, strength, etc, and do it legally.

In the last 10 years, every single player we have had that signed D1 or got drafted were extraordinarily hard workers that went on a training and nutrition program over a 3 or 4 year period, and got themselves bigger, stronger and faster. It doesn't happen overnight! It is a long term process, and it takes a lot of very hard work and discipline. We have not had anyone, not even one kid, who has waited around for nature to kick in, and end up getting drafted or signed by a big D1. It usually doesn't happen, and you will likely wait until you are a senior, and wonder why no one is calling. The small skinny 'Rudy' kid who makes it big is the exception to the rule. That is not the norm, and you shouldn't expect it to happen to you. Maybe it will, but you will be one of the few. I haven't seen it happen in our program.

Coach May is absolutely right when he says the kids who are physically developed have a head start in a college program. The college coaches will have something to work with right off the bat. Coaches and scouts can spot kids that have a strong work ethic. They can tell which kids are working on their bodies, and which aren't - the bigger and stronger kid stands out in a crowd and gets noticed. The kids who put in the work give themselves a much better chance, pure and simple. College coaches know that kid will take that work ethic into college, and there is much less risk that kid will give up or not develop. College baseball is unbelievably hard work. They want kids they know will not hesitate to work hard.

Every coach in successful high school programs realize this, but unfortunately, we can't convince everyone to go along with the program. That's why the bigger and stronger kids stand out in the crowd. We all want our kids to get bigger, stronger and faster and improve our teams. Unfortunately, there just aren't many that will put in the time and effort over an extended period of time. It is human nature to be lazy...

There are a few parents who seem to get it, like steve nordie and fanofgame, but everyone else seems to be making excuses. "Wait for nature to kick in, they are just kids, you can't rush it, you're sending the wrong message, size doesn't matter, look at Eckstein and Lincecum, there are always small kids on D1 rosters, you are encouraging them to take steroids," blah blah blah. Those are all excuses, and nothing but excuses. But that is the nature of the business. Most players sit around and wonder why they are not getting bigger, stonger, or faster, and accuse the studs of taking steroids. I have heard it many times at the HS level. Then, when the kid doesn't make it to the D1 or pro level, they and their parents blame it on the coach. That one I will never figure out.

Many of you won't like hearing this, but that's the way it is. Coach May has explained it like it is. You don't have to like it, but it's the player's responsibility to put in the work and make something of himself, not the coach's. You should be thankful for men like Coach May who put in the time and effort to structure programs to make their players better. He is giving his players the opportunity to develop themselves, and give them a better chance to be successful and move to the next level.

Knighttime-
Listen brother, I have a kid at a D-1 that is working his arse off. I know the drill.
Read my posts, there is never any excuse for anything other than hard work.

But, I will stand by my post, that some kids are just going to take longer to mature because of their genetic code. This does not mean that they cannot work hard and get strong. It just means that when their bodies say "grow" they will and not before. Gaining strength and conditioning will help prepare them for this next developmental leap. This is not an excuse, just fact.

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
Knighttime-
Listen brother, I have a kid at a D-1 that is working his arse off. I know the drill.
Read my posts, there is never any excuse for anything other than hard work.

But, I will stand by my post, that some kids are just going to take longer to mature because of their genetic code. This does not mean that they cannot work hard and get strong. It just means that when their bodies say "grow" they will and not before. Gaining strength and conditioning will help prepare them for this next developmental leap. This is not an excuse, just fact.

I am with you on this one. My son went to a D1 and worked his butt off. So don't tell me I have no clue. I have seen players come in all shapes and sizes, they were noticed for their ability, not because their head was above the others in the crowd. In fact, at where my son attended, you'll find many very good players to be smaller and more compact than you might expect.

I don't think anyone here said that you DON'T have to work hard to get bigger and stronger. If you don't do anything but sit around waiting for it to come to you, you are not going to get what you want. That's not the issue. IMO, you can work 24/7 and still have many pass you by, because if you lack the ability, no amount of muscle or weight, height is going to change that. The message I get from the feedback is that the player is just not ready ability wise for what he wants to do right now, and there is no shame in that for anyone.

I think fan's son has got it right, he wants to attend a JUCO to get bigger and stronger and develop the skills needed to someday attend a larger program. That's reality. Let him do what HE wants to do, not what mom WANTS him to do. The impression I get is that if he adds weight he is going to get better, that may or may not happen. He may not be ready to add that weight or height until his body wants to do it, that is all we are suggesting.

JMO.

quote:

There are a few parents who seem to get it, like steve nordie and fanofgame, but everyone else seems to be making excuses. "Wait for nature to kick in, they are just kids, you can't rush it, you're sending the wrong message, size doesn't matter, look at Eckstein and Lincecum, there are always small kids on D1 rosters, you are encouraging them to take steroids," blah blah blah. Those are all excuses, and nothing but excuses. But that is the nature of the business. Most players sit around and wonder why they are not getting bigger, stonger, or faster, and accuse the studs of taking steroids. I have heard it many times at the HS level. Then, when the kid doesn't make it to the D1 or pro level, they and their parents blame it on the coach. That one I will never figure out.

I know what iheartbb is trying to say and it is not about making excuses. I also agree with what Coach May is trying to say.

Look, there is nothing wrong with encouraging players to get bigger, stronger, and faster. I believe if the coach leaves the message at that he could be sending the wrong message. I think we continually need to be diligent and reinforce the message that we mean getting better means without PED's. For example, I think it is great for a coach to encourage a kid to be all he can be for his particular body type/maturity level. I think it is wrong for a coach to say something like "If you want to play at the D1 level, you need to look like that kid over there."

For guys that may work hard and still have trouble gaining weight because of their genes/maturity level, there are other ways to encourage them along with motivating them to continue with their healthy diets and legitimate weight training. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that Jimmy Rollins, or David Eckstein, or Dustin Pedroia, Omar Visquel, Ozzie Smith, njbb's son, or Yogi Berra were wildy successful without being anywhere near the biggest player on the field. Train hard with a healthy diet but never forget skill can get you where you ultimately want to go.

quote:

Originally posted by KnightTime:
Then, when the kid doesn't make it to the D1 or pro level, they and their parents blame it on the coach. That one I will never figure out.

yes many kids don't make it because they are lazy and don't work hard, but there are just as many kids who work hard and don't make it either. It's those parents who need to remove their rose colored glasses and realize it has nothing to do with size or weight. Those are the ones making excuses and their sons coaches usually are the first to get the blame.
I have seen parents freak out on a coach because their sons didn't get drafted high enough. Well it wasn't because they needed to get bigger or stronger, they had been working at it for 3-4 years in college, it was because their ability and skills didn't warrant being drafted higher. Now take that opportunity and make it happen and stop making excuses. Those are the folks you need to direct your not getting it comments to.

quote:

you can work 24/7 and still have many pass you by, because if you lack the ability, no amount of muscle or weight, height is going to change that.

Now theres a thought.

I can't remember any ball player that played on my son's elite teams ever not work their tails off. Some were successful but many weren't.
I saw more players who just didn't get noticed for their skill set that the physical side of things. You can rip the cover off a BB but you have to hit it 1st.
Working hard is not an option and it is not a gaurentee. Being a physically developed guy with taent may set you above others but that depends on how talented the others are.

I think most parents get it. Some parents may get too wrapped up in what their son's responsibility is. It is not us out there sweating and grinding year after year to reach their goal. As has been said many times it is up to us to guide them but it has to be their desire and talent.

Look a kid with not much baseball talent can still be a better player by doing what I have talked about. Yes he may not be a D-1 player or even a college player. But he will be the best he could have been. And he will make our team better.

Talent is very important. But every kid on your sons college team is going to be talented. Every man on that minor league roster is going to be talented. Now what is going to be the difference? What is going to separate the guys who consistently improve and the ones that continue to ride the talent that God gave them? At some point and time talent is not going to be enough to separate you from the crowd. Its going to be your work ethic and your desire to continually work to improve.

Talent will take to you a certain point. Talent will get you there. But talent wont keep you there.

I gave a speech to my guys the other day. I call it my "Be Great" speech.

Everyone on this team needs to be Great. You need to be the greatest player you can be. Now what is Great? Great is working and striving to be the very best YOU can be. Now that might mean you become a very solid HS player. You took what God gave you and you got the absolute most out of it. You have become Great! Great for you Mark might mean you take what God has given you and you work to become the very best you can be. And that takes you to a D-3 school. Now you have become great! Why are you now Great? Because you took what was given by God to you and you did everything you could to be the best you possibly could be. What more could anyone ask from you? If everyone of you strive to be Great we will be Great. Because we will be all that we can possibly be.

Talented players that live off their talent will never be great. They will just be talented players that never reach their potential. I want Great players. Players that take whatever talent that God gave them and then strive to be great. All of them no matter what level of baseball they reach , Will Be Great!

Give me a very talented player that strives to be Great and the sky is the limit on the level they can play. Give me a talented player that thinks his talent will be enough. And he will never be great. That is an absolute fact!

CM,fanofgame and all,
I think we are all trying to say the same thing but just differently.

Let's get back to the first post. I think we all agree that there have been excuses as to why the player has no commitment (I still can't figure them all out).

That's what this is all about. You got to get out there and do what you got to do to get where you want to go. Regardless of talent level, size ,etc. if you work hard enough, in the gym, in the classroom, get exposure (some at least)do your recruiting homework you most likely will find a place to play. It may not be where you want right away, but that might mean that you just have to keep working harder. If you haven't done what you are supposed to do and things haven't happened, no excuses please.