Recently I was watching a game. a couple of close pitches were called balls and the coach asked what was the matter. Takes off his mask walks to the dugout and issues a warning. a couple of fans were giving some comment as well(nothing that you do not regularly hear no vulgarity) upon which he gives a warning to the fans. Am I missing something here.

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Originally posted by Will:
Recently I was watching a game. a couple of close pitches were called balls and the coach asked what was the matter. Takes off his mask walks to the dugout and issues a warning. a couple of fans were giving some comment as well(nothing that you do not regularly hear no vulgarity) upon which he gives a warning to the fans. Am I missing something here.

Coaches are not to argue balls and strikes. We usually give them a couple of freebies, but there is a point where they need to knock it off. Sometimes a warnig is used.

However, by rule (9.01(a)(b)(d)(e)), the umpire has no authority over the fans and needs to keep his head on his side of the fence

I NEVER talk to fans/parents/whoever is in the stands. Once you open this door, you can't close it. Occasionally, when a fan gets too mouthy, I quietly approach "the mouth's" manager between innings, and inform him that if the abuse continues, I will eject him (the manager). This seems to take care of the problem.

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Coaches are not to argue balls and strikes.

I am aware of that although I have to say that when I first started coaching you could ask an umpire where a pitch was or even disagree. towards the end of my tenure it was the confrontational I am the boss you are the coach shut up mentality of the umpires coming up. just an observation.

Spot on will !!!!

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Originally posted by Will:

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Coaches are not to argue balls and strikes.

I am aware of that although I have to say that when I first started coaching you could ask an umpire where a pitch was or even disagree. towards the end of my tenure it was the confrontational I am the boss you are the coach shut up mentality of the umpires coming up. just an observation.

Asking a couple of times and disagreeing civily is not a problem. Continuing to ask into the fourth of fifth inning is arguing and persistent and is doing neither the coach nor umpire any good. I will warn to knock it off.

This is nothing new. This is has been common place for years.

I have no problem with a coach asking about where his pitcher is missing. Persistant chirping will be dealt with. It isn't a "I'm the boss attitude" it's game management.

Spot on Michael!!!!

(couldn't resist)

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Asking a couple of times and disagreeing civily is not a problem.

It is a problem with some.I remember asking a younger umpire the first time "where was that pitch a little in" I was told to keep my mouth shut on balls and strikes or I would be run" I was not obnoxious or yelling or screaming. As i said before when I first started coaching you could ask where pitch was without getting your head bit off.

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Asking a couple of times and disagreeing civily is not a problem.


It is a problem with some.I remember asking a younger umpire the first time "where was that pitch a little in" I was told to keep my mouth shut on balls and strikes or I would be run" I was not obnoxious or yelling or screaming. As i said before when I first started coaching you could ask where pitch was without getting your head bit off.

To me.......it is all about how it is asked, and when it is asked......

If it is asked as Will stated........."where was that pitch?.......a little in???.........no problem, I am happy to answer........

Now, this does not give a coach license to question me on every close pitch........and many umpires do refuse to discuss pitch locations for just that reason..........

pick your times, be civil,.......and no problem.....persist and be hostile.. and as MST states, that will not be met pleasantly.......that falls under game management....and the rule regarding argueing balls and strikes.

I always like to ask early on.

Why?

Because it helps to give me and my players an idea of the strike zone we will be dealing with during the game

We had a situation late in the season this year, actually in the city championships. There was a pitch that was borderline, I was sitting directly above the plate, and the PU balled the pitch. The whole defensive staff let out their version of "Oh my God!" The manager jumped up, threw his clipboard across the bullpen and then asked where was it. The PU aksed him if he really wanted an answer? The manager said absolutely. The PU answered the question and then tossed him. The manager had a stroke then came upstairs to me. He claimed he only asked where it was to reposition his catcher. I explained to him the toss wasn't for the question but for the display before it and then the way he asked the question. It wasn't until the next day on our second conversation that he allowed as he may have been a little too animated.

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Originally posted by Will:

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Asking a couple of times and disagreeing civily is not a problem.

It is a problem with some.I remember asking a younger umpire the first time "where was that pitch a little in" I was told to keep my mouth shut on balls and strikes or I would be run" I was not obnoxious or yelling or screaming. As i said before when I first started coaching you could ask where pitch was without getting your head bit off.

Okay, so now it is a problem with "some", and you remember asking a "younger umpire:....

I won't talk about the grief I've been given from "younger coaches" or generalize current trends because of the actions of "some" coaches.

I will say that arguing balls and strikes is prohibited by rule. The length of rope handed to coaches will vary umpire to umpire. Whether the coach eventually puts it away or hangs himself is his decision.

And, it has always been thus.

A couple of "was that out" questions is expected as a coach attempts to understand the strike zone, or, in the case of smarter coaches, tries to see what effect his catcher may be having. But if it continues, it moves into the persistent catagory and needs to stop.

Some umpires are better at stopping it than others. Some coaches are better at knowing when to stop than others.

If this is new, you have had a sheltered coaching career.

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Originally posted by piaa_ump:

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quote:
Asking a couple of times and disagreeing civily is not a problem.
It is a problem with some.I remember asking a younger umpire the first time "where was that pitch a little in" I was told to keep my mouth shut on balls and strikes or I would be run" I was not obnoxious or yelling or screaming. As i said before when I first started coaching you could ask where pitch was without getting your head bit off.

To me.......it is all about how it is asked, and when it is asked......
If it is asked as Will stated........."where was that pitch?.......a little in???.........no problem, I am happy to answer........

I also answer a civil question w/a short civil answer. But we all know that few if any coaches ask that question because they are "charting" the pitcher, or want to re-position the catcher, ect--thats all just BS! Its a subtle way to disagree w/the call and maybe hope to get one their way. ANY coach tells you different is lying!

I have 2 sons who umpire, ages 20 and 22, both pretty easy going guys. Additional "burden" for the 20 year old is that he looks like he is 15. Both have been playing since age 6, umpiring since age 12. In general, neither gets a lot of respect because of their ages. Some managers really try to show them who is boss. It's like they're sharks, and they smell blood. Neither have ever tossed a manager - even though more than a couple have deserved it. For "higher level" games, I usually work with one of them. I have tossed a couple of guys who pushed them too hard. Just last week I tossed a guy who "threw a nutty" on the 20 year old on a steal at 2B. After the game, the manager approached my son in a very friendly manner, telling him to "stick with it, you're gonna be a good one". What a jerk!

I still think the best way to question the umpire's strike zone in a very subtle manner is to ask the catcher, in your most sarcastic voice, "Son, are you behind the plate?"

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Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
I still think the best way to question the umpire's strike zone in a very subtle manner is to ask the catcher, in your most sarcastic voice, "Son, are you behind the plate?"

What's really funny about that is that many of them aren't.

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Some umpires are better at stopping it than others. Some coaches are better at knowing when to stop than others.

If this is new, you have had a sheltered coaching career.

Jimmy 03

I just stated that at the end of my tenure I saw a significant change in the way umpires handled situations that had never been a problem before.

4.06
(a) No manager, player, substitute, coach, trainer or batboy shall at any time, whether from the bench, the coach’s box or on the playing field, or elsewhere—
(1) Incite, or try to incite, by word or sign a demonstration by spectators;
(2) Use language which will in any manner refer to or reflect upon opposing players, an umpire, or any spectator;

This is about as vague as a rule can get, leave's a lot of room for interpretation.
Coach's/players; don't anticipate how your questions (by word) will be percieved..

As an umpire I will be talking to F2 most the time, that was down, that was out, etc.
I want strikes, if I can help I will, no I can't "stretch the zone".
Nobody can hear this except, F2 and the batter, I want B to know too.
I like strikes and I like the bat to be swinging.

I don't like having too make an un-educated (never liked psychology) guess as to a coaches meaning, when he's asking, "where is that?", is he talking to me, F2, F1, the batter, or inciting the crowd? Just to hard to tell, don't do it..

About the only question I've been able to understand is between innings or on the mound as I'm breaking up your visit; where are those missing blue? That I encourage and gladly answer, screams from the dugout uh-uh.

I did this once and got away with it: a partuclarly questionable "strike zone". (I'll be honest, horrific) balls bringing up dust clouds being called strikes "consistently".
After a couple of innings, I'm coaching third.
I ask for time, it's granted. I point towards CF, intently staring out towards CF as I hastily walk towards the plate. HPU is coming towards me, as I get within ear shot, I emphatically point out towards CF. HPU follows down my arm to see what I'm pointing at, he actually kinda leaned in close to see the site line. I say, "sir, we work very hard to recognize the strike zone, I teach my guys not to swing at those". I kinda of wave my arm like I'm pointing something out as I'm speaking, say "thanks" turn and walk away.
The hair on the back a my neck is raised in anticipatioin of the rath "I deserved".
It didn't come and the zone didn't change, but I tried the best I knew.
Now no one but me and him know this story, we've never seen ea. other again that I recall. I coulda simply yelled from the box, "blue, those are in the dirt" or "come on blue, we teach em not to swing at those" in an inciting manner.
Rather, I got my message across, I guess he appreciated it?
I did not express my thoughts of the zone to my players and when they did complain, which they did, I simply said, "let's go, you see the zone".

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Originally posted by jjk:

... I say, "sir, we work very hard to recognize the strike zone, I teach my guys not to swing at those". I kinda of wave my arm like I'm pointing something out as I'm speaking, say "thanks" turn and walk away.
.

Would I rather hear this type of complaint versus yelling? Yes!- but only once...You ask for time again, then quietly complain about balls/strikes ---will be your last as you're gone.
If the 1st conversation had happened to me as PU, what would I do/change?-Nothing!- just another coach trying to work me and not succeeding....but as a past coach, that approach is more mystyle...