When I was a kid playing ball, the umpires would signal a full count by putting two closed hands up. It made it very easy to know for sure it was full count. I haven't seen this done for a long time.

These days, they put up 2 fingers on one hand and three on the other. Depending on where you are sitting, it can be very hard to see if the count is full or if it is 2-2.

Why did they stop putting up two closed hands?

Closed fists were never the proper sign for full count. As umpires are exposed to proper mechanics through expanded training opportunities that and other "weekend" mechanios are disappearing.

Properly trained umpires don't do closed fists for a 3/2 count nor do they say full count. They say three balls, two strikes, this how you can tell if t is 3/2 or 2/2.

Maybe it isn't what they are supposed to do, but I wish they WOULD put up closed fists. It is a heck of a lot easier to see.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Maybe it isn't what they are supposed to do, but I wish they WOULD put up closed fists. It is a heck of a lot easier to see.

Perhaps. But then we'd more people wondering shy the count is 0-0 after several pitches. I've never had any problems with people telling the difference between two fingers and three fingers or knowing that balls are counted on the left hand and strikes on the right, or hearing me say, "Three balls, two strikes."

Well, there are lots of places in the stands, depending on the angle and how far away you are sitting, where it is very hard (if not impossible) to see the difference between two and three fingers on the hand.

I can't recall an umpire ever giving an 0-0 count sign.

Rob

I am with you---there are times when from the coaching boxes you cnnot see the fingers because of umpire positioning but you can clearly see the clenched fists

what the heck is an 0-0 count anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
Well, there are lots of places in the stands, depending on the angle and how far away you are sitting, where it is very hard (if not impossible) to see the difference between two and three fingers on the hand.

I can't recall an umpire ever giving an 0-0 count sign.

My point exactly. A closed fist means "nothing" or "0". Two closed fists confuse more people than the number who think it means 3-2.

Again, a proper signal accompanied by "Three balls and two strikes, has never seemed to confuse anyone in my games.

An umpire using two closed fists, or yelling "full count" is seen as a rookie or "Charlie" by coaches and his fellow umpires in these parts.

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Again, a proper signal accompanied by "Three balls and two strikes, has never seemed to confuse anyone in my games.

It's not about being confused, it is about being able to see what the count is. Most umpires don't say the count loud enough for people in the stands to hear.
And lots of people can't distinguish the number of fingers being held up.

I am sure what you say about the "proper" signal is true. I'm just suggesting an improvement that would make it easier for the people in the seats.

Nobody is going to be confusing a clenched fist full count sign for an 0-0 count.

Don't the "proper" mechanics ever change and evolve?

Coach,

Those who set the standards in mechanics and those who use them, to my knowledge, haven't expressed a concern over this issue.

But feel free to propose a change in umpire mechanics to NFHS for high school, or Professional Umpire Baseball Corp. (PBUC) for OBR based games.

I keep a score book in my lap. I need bifocals to see it, but I usually know the count... Usually...

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

Again, a proper signal accompanied by "Three balls and two strikes, has never seemed to confuse anyone in my games.

It's not about being confused, it is about being able to see what the count is. Most umpires don't say the count loud enough for people in the stands to hear.
And lots of people can't distinguish the number of fingers being held up.

I am sure what you say about the "proper" signal is true. I'm just suggesting an improvement that would make it easier for the people in the seats.

Nobody is going to be confusing a clenched fist full count sign for an 0-0 count.

Don't the "proper" mechanics ever change and evolve?

yes proper mechanics do change/evolve......and the current proper way to show a full count is with your fingers showing "3 balls and 2 strikes".....its not balled up fists, and its not calling out "full count" or "full Boat" or "thirty two" ....

As to be loud enough for fans to hear, thats not our concern... I am not there to be the Public Address announcer....now I usually dont have any issues as I have by nature an umpiring voice that carries.....but I am only concerned that the batter,catcher and pitcher see or hear my count.....the rest of the participants are on their own or can ask me.....the fans can watch the scoreboard....

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the fans can watch the scoreboard

Sure, but speaking from experience, quite a few umpires don't display the count in way that the scoreboard operator or scorekeeper can see. Nor can they be heard from behind. IMO, at high school games, the biggest cause of erroneous or late scoreboard postings is too much socializing by the operator. But a close second is poor communication by the person who is responsible for the count--the umpire. From my point of view, appropriate communication to the scoreboard, and by proxy to the crowd, is one aspect of good game management.

I certainly don't expect to hear "thirty-two" from a qualified umpire, but I will comment that it is much easier to hear than "three 'n two", especially from umpires who's strike three call sounds like "high hee". Most people will ennunciate the "ty" sound in "thirty", but don't ennunciate the "d" in "and".

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:

I certainly don't expect to hear "thirty-two" from a qualified umpire, but I will comment that it is much easier to hear than "three 'n two", especially from umpires who's strike three call sounds like "high hee". Most people will ennunciate the "ty" sound in "thirty", but don't ennunciate the "d" in "and".

Which is all the more reason that umpires should follow the uniform standard taught at proschools and clinics: Verbalize both the number and the call...."Three Balls, Two Strikes"....when giving the count. We most often encounter problems when we use home brewed mechanics like "22", "full boat" and closed fists signals.

While it may not be the correct mechanic today, it certainly was widely used in the old days (e.g. when Rob and I were boys). I'm with Rob - I think it would be an improvement on the mechanics to go back to two closed fists for full count. Either that or make sure when giving the count that the ump rotates somewhat so as to show three vs two fingers.

quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
While it may not be the correct mechanic today, it certainly was widely used in the old days (e.g. when Rob and I were boys). I'm with Rob - I think it would be an improvement on the mechanics to go back to two closed fists for full count. Either that or make sure when giving the count that the ump rotates somewhat so as to show three vs two fingers.

First, as PIAA noted, umpires communicate the count to the batter, pitcher and catcher. He is not the PA announcer. If a coach misses the count, he simply asks and we give it to him.

Second, a lot of umpire used home made mechanics when I was a boy, too. A lot of players did some really strange thing back then, too. Thank God we've both learned better.

if you desire to see the "fist bump" or hear "thirty two" just head to your local slowpitch softball game

At the risk of being a smartaleck, why is a three/two count any different or harder to understand than any other count. I always say three balls/two strikes because it was too hard to understand without.
At no time was full count or closed fists taught as a mechanic. If you would like to see it, go to any LL field and you will see it in a second.

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At no time was full count or closed fists taught as a mechanic. If you would like to see it, go to any LL field and you will see it in a second.

Hey I get it. You guys all have a professional code in which certain things are signs of inexperience and/or incompetence. Bush league, so to speak. And closed fists for full count happens to be one of them. Fine.

I am just suggesting that it is a better way to do it, even if it is considered bush league by the masters of the diamond.

It would increase the enjoyment of the fans in the stands. We aren't there to admire the professionalism of the umpire staff. We sometimes just want to know what the freaking count is, and the attitude of "I'm not here to be the PA system" seems prevalent.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

It would increase the enjoyment of the fans in the stands. We aren't there to admire the professionalism of the umpire staff. We sometimes just want to know what the freaking count is, and the attitude of "I'm not here to be the PA system" seems prevalent.

The umpires are there to officiate the game, nothing else. The spectators are not part of the game (with the sole exception of spectator interference). The count is given to participants in the game.