BALL HITS SECOND BASE AND THEN ROLLS INTO FOUL TERRITORY BEFORE THE 1ST OR 3RD BASE BAG.
IS THIS A FAIR OR FOUL BALL.

THANKS ALL!

Fair ball.

absolutely fair ball with no question.............can you clarify why anyone would question why this would not be a fair ball?

I've had it happen. Ball trickled into an on-deck cicle between 3rd and home after a sharp line drive off of 2nd. My partner and I both point fair, while the runners (R1 R2) are flying, and the defense is watching it roll while their coach is yelling "LET IT GO!" After the play, a run had scored, and the defensive coach wants to argue that 2nd base is... um.. well.. foul? Sorry. All bases are fair. If a batted ball touches any base, then goes into foul territory, it's a fair ball. He thought about it for a second, then just went back to the dugout. During the post-game handshakes, he said he didn't know what in the world he was thinking.

I'm with piaa_ump... why would this be a a questionable call?

quote:

If a batted ball touches any base, then goes into foul territory, it's a fair ball.

Certainly, if it touches 1st or 3rd base, but I believe touching 2nd base has nothing to do with it. I believe fair/foul is based upon a line drawn from 1st to 3rd, and any ball that lands beyond that is considered fair. For example, everyone playing deep and the batter hits a a pop-up with tremendous backspin on it. The ball hits a stone in the fair territory beyond this imaginary line and the backspin and richochet sends it across the third base line before any fielder touches it. This would warrant a "fair ball" point of the hand. Am I right on this one?

3 out of 4 snaredrum. if the ball hits the plate and rolls foul, its a foul ball. as for the imaginary line, im looking in the case book for a reference.

When the batted ball touches 2nd base, it becomes fair for 2 reasons: FED 2-5-1-e "A fair ball is a batted ball which touches first, second or third base," and FED 2-5-1-b "A fair ball is a batted ball which contacts fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base."

N.B. The rubber is in front of this line. A line drive off the rubber that settled on foul ground would be foul.

quote:

Originally posted by paulmckk:
3 out of 4 snaredrum. if the ball hits the plate and rolls foul, its a foul ball. as for the imaginary line, im looking in the case book for a reference.

Thanks paul, but I don't consider home plate a "base". That's why I said "any base". Fouls off the plate happen all the time.

As far as the imaginary line, that's perfect wording in the FED. Basically, if a batted ball passes 1st or 3rd in fair territory, after touching fair territory, it's fair. Tough call though. BU would have to hustle a little if "cookie"s stone was close to that i-line.

quote:

2-5-1-b "A fair ball is a batted ball which contacts fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base."

Really, FED says' this? That does it, I gotta get me a FED book. I mean, I agree with it, but would certainly never call it in an OBR game.
So this must give the BU an additional mechanic to consider, interesting.

I was gungho on jumping over to FED this season too.
But due to some health issues I am grounded from taking any blows. So for the first time in 40 some years I won't be having a glove on my hand nor will I be climbing behind the plate with my indicator (only 29yrs for umpiring).

Doc say's "it won't kill me nor make me live any longer, but ya gotta be careful". "Sheesh Doc, "your killing me", you can't be saying things like that around my bride, which of course get's right to my nurse daughter!

So, I'm reduced to Evals for BB, (shh, I would sneak on 90' bases, but won't.) and some SB.

"Rule 2-5-1-b 'a fair ball is a batted ball which contacts the fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base'"

quote:

That does it, I gotta get me a FED book. I mean, I agree with it, but would certainly never call it in an OBR game.

jjk, I believe it's the rule in OBR also (this imaginary line)...

How about this one: R3 is leading off 3rd in foul territory. The batter hits a line drive that hits 3rd base, bounces back and hits R3 (on foul ground). Assume that F5 is playing behind the bag. Your call please.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
How about this one: R3 is leading off 3rd in foul territory. The batter hits a line drive that hits 3rd base, bounces back and hits R3 (on foul ground). Assume that F5 is playing behind the bag. Your call please.

Dangit dash! That's a good one.

Dead ball. R3 is out. BR at 1B unless the infraction was the 3rd out. Wrong place wrong time for R3.

I see it as a fair ball that touches a base runner before it (ball) is touched or goes past or through an infielder that's not F1.

Well guys?

quote:

Certainly, if it touches 1st or 3rd base, but I believe touching 2nd base has nothing to do with it

In OBR, touching 2nd actually does have something to do with it.

2.00: "A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, ... or that touches first, second or third base."


And on the ball hitting 3rd bse then bouncing back & hitting R3 in foul territory ...

7.09(m): "The runner is out when ... a fair ball touches him on fair territory before touching a fielder."

So in this case, it would seen that he's not out, because he wasn't "on fair territory".

What's interesting is that 2.00 also says: "A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that ... or ... or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground."

So what we've seemingly got is:
- the ball hitting 3rd base, making it fair.
- a fair ball then hitting the runner in foul territory, meaning he's not out.
- and because it hit him in foul territory it then becomes a foul ball.

So is it a fair ball, a foul ball, or a dead ball???

I'll just echo Snaredrum's comment, "Dangtit dash! That's a good one.

A fair ball can never become foul, and a batted ball that hits a baserunner stays live unless the runner is out or the interference is intentional.

The ball hitting 3rd is fair, the ball then striking R3 while he's in "foul territory", live ball play on.

"jjk, I believe it's the rule in OBR also (this imaginary line)..."

There is no such rule in OBR. Striking the bags yes, other wise is must be beyond 1st or 3rd.

That is why my surprise when I learned that FED actually offers this "imaginary line", never heard of such a thing.

regarding that imaginary line..

let's say its a windy day (like it is in NJ today!). High pop up, it hits the ground between short and third, and the wind blows it towards the line where it crosses the line in front of 3B.

based on the imaginary line rule, its a fair ball. Not that it would happen, but I'm sure alot of coaches wouldn't believe it!

quote:

There is no such rule in OBR. Striking the bags yes, other wise is must be beyond 1st or 3rd.

You're right so far jjk. I couldn't find anything in the PBUC manual, and the 2008 BRD (Childress) says there is no provision regarding an "imaginary line" for OBR and NCAA. It appears only FED has it in their rule book.

That raises the question as to what would the call be in the situation that goMO presented in an MiB game or an MLB game or an NCAA game.

I would call it judged whether it had passed 3rd base or not.

In an OBR game, I'd call it fair if it had indeed gone further than 1st or 3rd base.
Never really thought about until this post, but, a 90* angle line, from the front of 3rd toward second, intersects nicely with a similar line from the front of 1B towards 2nd. I just can't picture a ball traveling only 63 some ft, meeting the requirment of landing first "beyond" 1st or 3rd.

It would be pretty easy to determine fair foul on a ball dropping say 10' from 3RD on the SS side, as you'd have a pretty good imaginary line using the base path.

So, mechanically speaking, who's call is this in two man? I'm assuming BU? And do you give the fair signal as soon as it hits? And if no fair signal by BU, does PU check with BU prior to ruling foul on a ball that rolls out?

Could be interesting for those 1 man games.

And? 2-5-1-b "A fair ball is a batted ball which contacts fair ground on or beyond an imaginary line between first and third base."

Tell me about this line:
1. Is it from the C/L of the bags?
2. The foul side front corners?
3. The fair side, outfield corners?

How long has this been a FED rule? (And how long until we can get it changed? :')

I have 97-98 Fed Ump. Manual and a Case Book (97), I see nothing in there.

From OBR:
2.00
A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that..."or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base"...........

J/R goes on to say; "It is a fari ball; that is ariborne falls on fair territory beyond first, second, or third base".

Good provocative stuff jjk. I must say it's a delight to see the Pythagorean Theorem applied to a baseball question! As for the points defining the imaginary line (segment), hey this is FED. The "base" is close enough for government work.

BU never has fair/foul on the 3B side in 2-man. It's the PU's job to call it fair (permanently) as soon as it hits the bag and to stay with the ball if it rolls into foul territory.

quote:

BU never has fair/foul on the 3B side in 2-man. It's the PU's job to call it fair (permanently) as soon as it hits the bag and to stay with the ball if it rolls into foul territory.

I was refering to the "imaginary line", what is the mechanic/s? Hitting a bag, sure that's PU call.

Is PU expected to see this imaginary line between 1st and 3rd? Even though BU is nearly right on top of it, the Imaginary line that is, (at least in better position) in A, B or C positions.

I dunno? I envision, BU watching the ball hit, and judging if it has passed this line.

It's fair if it lands beyond this line, regardless of where it goes after, so IMO a ball landing 3'6" past the pitching rubber, towards 2nd, should be judged fair at that point and should be indicated by a "fair ball signal", by somebody.

How long did you say it will take to change this rule? More I hear, the more I don't like.