At a wood bat tournament our player hit a high fly ball to center field. F8 made the catch, but immediately after hit the wall and dropped the ball. Field umpire ruled no catch, 2 runs score. Other coach appeals to home plate umpire who overrules field umpire. What is the correct ruling on this play?

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immediately after hit the wall and dropped the ball.

'No catch' is the correct ruling...

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Originally posted by NW Knights07:
At a wood bat tournament our player hit a high fly ball to center field. F8 made the catch, but immediately after hit the wall and dropped the ball. Field umpire ruled no catch, 2 runs score. Other coach appeals to home plate umpire who overrules field umpire. What is the correct ruling on this play?

1. No catch.
2. Plate umpire is an idiot.

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:

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Originally posted by NW Knights07:
At a wood bat tournament our player hit a high fly ball to center field. F8 made the catch, but immediately after hit the wall and dropped the ball. Field umpire ruled no catch, 2 runs score. Other coach appeals to home plate umpire who overrules field umpire. What is the correct ruling on this play?

1. No catch.
2. Plate umpire is an idiot.

3. Not the Plate Umpires Call
4. Plate Umpire has no legal right to overturn BU

Jimmy took the words right out of my mouth.

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Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
Jimmy took the words right out of my mouth.

Agreed.....in some of these cases, with some of these umpires.....there just isnt any better answer than that....

Without seeing the play how can anyone here make a decision ?


As for the plate umpire making the call I have been in too many games where the plate umpire called catch on outfield plays/catches

It also seems that there is an unwritten rule that the base umpire shall not set foot on the outfield grass to make a call on a fly ball in the outfield

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Without seeing the play how can anyone here make a decision ?


As for the plate umpire making the call I have been in too many games where the plate umpire called catch on outfield plays/catches

It also seems that there is an unwritten rule that the base umpire shall not set foot on the outfield grass to make a call on a fly ball in the outfield

TR, Pretty easily actually.....

First off there is the definition of a catch...(condensed)...

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of
a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or
any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if
simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player,
or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball.

Then there are the approved Mechanics for 2 man umpiring which gives the base umpire the catch/no catch on balls hit to center with runners on base. (called in the "V" or in "the cone")....

then there is the rule 9.02c

If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making the call....


So...

Its not a catch....per rule

It wasnt the Home plate umpires call....per proper mechanics...

The Home plate umpire had no right to overrule the base umpire....per rule....

Read what I asked---how can anyone
on here, this site, know if the catch was a catch or not without seeing the play

If you can tell me yes then it adds more credence to my "three blind mice" theory

Don't get me wrong, the field umpire was correct in his ruling of no catch.
This said, the plate umpire, being UIC, by rule has the right to overrule any rule interpretation by the field umpire. Unfortunately the plate umpire was incorrect, but within the rules when he overturned the call based on a rule interpretation, not a judgment call.

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Originally posted by DVM:
Don't get me wrong, the field umpire was correct in his ruling of no catch.
This said, the plate umpire, being UIC, by rule has the right to overrule any rule interpretation by the field umpire. Unfortunately the plate umpire was incorrect, but within the rules when he overturned the call based on a rule interpretation, not a judgment call.

Citation and rule code, please.

TRhit; Based on the OP there is no voluntary release so there is no catch.

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F8 made the catch, but immediately after hit the wall and dropped the ball.

DVM; If any umpire believes a rule has been improperly applied, the umpires should get together and agree on the proper ruling. If they cannot agree, the plate umpire has no authority to overrule. If I am the base umpire and the PU attempts to overrule me, I will only agree if he has information to offer. Who is to say the UIC is more knowledgeable of the rules simply because he is behind the plate today?

Please cite a rule that says the UIC can overrule a call because he thinks it is a rule misinterpretation. There is no such rule.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Read what I asked---how can anyoner on here, this site, know if the catch was a catch or not without seeing the play

If you can tell me yes then it adds more credence to my "three blind mice" theory

By your implied criterion, no one could opine on any post other than a quetion of the wording of a rule, ever, because we were not there.

However, as is accepted practice, we have a taken the OP to represent the facts of the matter and thus we are free to express our opinions.

Do you stay awake nights trying to count the ways you hate umpires? You never fail to include an insult, implied or direct in your posts.

Sincerely,

Mouse #2.

First I agree that it's a no catch and the plate ump should keep his mouth shut because that is the right way to handle this. Maybe the field could get the play wrong but hopefully not but it is 100% judgement call IMO.


Second for those of you saying the plate ump has the right to change this call let me ask this - if the field ump is watching the OF on catch / no catch and the plate ump is watching catch / no catch to see if the field ump got it right then who's watching the runner(s)?

If both guys (assuming a two man crew here since it was a fall ball game) are watching the OF then the runners could be all over the place.

As already stated, this is the BU's call per every mechanics manual out there so that is black letter law. The definition of a catch is plaining worded in the rulebook. The fact that another umpire can't overrule his partner is equally stated. There is absolutely no judgment in this play at all, nor any obtuse interpretation. This is as cut and dried a situation as we have had in while.

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Originally posted by DVM:
This said, the plate umpire, being UIC, by rule has the right to overrule any rule interpretation by the field umpire. Unfortunately the plate umpire was incorrect, but within the rules when he overturned the call based on a rule interpretation, not a judgment call.

I believe what DVM is referring to is OBR rule 9.04C...But understanding that MLB rules are based on the assumption that there are 4-6 Umpires on the field. This does not apply to games umpired by less umpires...

In 90% of the games umpired by those of us here, there are some 3 man games, but mostly they are only 2 man games. In the 2 man system each umpire has his own responsibilities based on the situation at hand....In the OP, if the umpires were using the basic fundamental mechanics system, the HPU would not have seen the catch/no catch, as he would have had the tag up...

But here is the MLB rule.....

9.04C

If different decisions should be made on one play by different umpires, the umpire-in-chief shall call all the umpires into consultation, with no manager or player present. After consultation, the umpire-in-chief (unless another umpire may have been designated by the league president) shall determine which decision shall prevail, based on which umpire was in best position and which decision was most likely correct. Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made.

Now this rule specifies the Umpire in chief, which may or not be the HPU....the rules mention that the HPU shall be called the umpire in chief, yet in practical usage, each crew has a Crew Chief whose authority is virtually never questioned.

NO HS umpire should infer that this rule is a justification for pulling the boneheaded action of over-riding his partner as per the OP...

This is a blown call by the HPU, per rule and practical application....In the OP, the HPU blew the call, and put the crew into a possible protest situation, which makes the chapter and the profession look bad... if you did this in my chapter, you would earn yourself a suspension and most probably a reassignment to lower JV types games....

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Originally posted by piaa_ump:

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Originally posted by DVM:
This said, the plate umpire, being UIC, by rule has the right to overrule any rule interpretation by the field umpire. Unfortunately the plate umpire was incorrect, but within the rules when he overturned the call based on a rule interpretation, not a judgment call.

I believe what DVM is referring to is OBR rule 9.04C..

9.04 (C) is used when two different calls have been made. It requires consultation with all umpires involved and then, the UIC decides which call is correct. It is not used to allow one umpire to overrule another. There is a huge difference.

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:

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Originally posted by piaa_ump:

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Originally posted by DVM:
This said, the plate umpire, being UIC, by rule has the right to overrule any rule interpretation by the field umpire. Unfortunately the plate umpire was incorrect, but within the rules when he overturned the call based on a rule interpretation, not a judgment call.

I believe what DVM is referring to is OBR rule 9.04C..

9.04 (C) is used when two different calls have been made. It requires consultation with all umpires involved and then, the UIC decides which call is correct. It is not used to allow one umpire to overrule another. There is a huge difference.

agreed, but I cant for the life of me think of any other rule that DVM would be referring to...

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Originally posted by piaa_ump:

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:

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Originally posted by piaa_ump:

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Originally posted by DVM:
This said, the plate umpire, being UIC, by rule has the right to overrule any rule interpretation by the field umpire. Unfortunately the plate umpire was incorrect, but within the rules when he overturned the call based on a rule interpretation, not a judgment call.

I believe what DVM is referring to is OBR rule 9.04C..

9.04 (C) is used when two different calls have been made. It requires consultation with all umpires involved and then, the UIC decides which call is correct. It is not used to allow one umpire to overrule another. There is a huge difference.

agreed, but I cant for the life of me think of any other rule that DVM would be referring to...

I suppose it's possible that DVM could be mistaken.

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Originally posted by DVM:
Don't get me wrong, the field umpire was correct in his ruling of no catch.
This said, the plate umpire, being UIC, by rule has the right to overrule any rule interpretation by the field umpire. Unfortunately the plate umpire was incorrect, but within the rules when he overturned the call based on a rule interpretation, not a judgment call.

Catch/no-catch is a judgment call - only the BU can change it.