We had a LL game recently where 2 of our runners were called out at 2B on steals. As 1st base coach my view was limited but the runners obviously beat the ball to the base. It really wasn't close. When I asked the ump what happened he simply told me that the runners never reached the base. I found out later after the game that the SS was setting up at the 2B bag with his left foot between the base runner and the base before he had the ball. The runners beat the throw but they slid into his foot both times and that's why they never reached the bag.

Now as a 11/12 year old coach I'm not going to tell a player to slide head first or slide thru the fielders leg.

My question is can the infielder legally block the basepath without possesion of the ball? These were not "bang-bang" plays. If this is illegal I want to be proactive and ask the umps to keep an eye on it before our next game against this team.

No. The fielder cannot "block the bag" without the ball.

As I understand it, this year the rules were even 'clarified' to not allow a fielder to set up like that even if he's about to receive the throw. Basically, (this case) the fielder is not allowed to impede the progress of any runner to a base in any way, unless fielder has the ball. The block then tag? Don't think so.

He can set up, like a straddle, to catch the ball in a way that allows to drop a leg quickly for a block after the catch. I see that often.

If I saw it like you described it, runner might be safe, and I'm having a little chat with the SS and/or his coach. Since it is obstruction, the runner might find himself at 3rd, especially in a bangbang or if the runner had beat the throw.
Guys?

quote:

My question is can the infielder legally block the basepath without possesion of the ball? These were not "bang-bang" plays.

If he's setting up to make a play on a thrown or batted ball, he can. Now that doesn't mean he can arrive at the bag 5 seconds before the throw and just block the runner, If the umpire feels as if there was no play being made on a thrown or batted ball, he may choose to call obstruction on the fielder. In which case he could protect the runner to what ever bag he feels the runner would have safely reached without the obstruction.

quote:

As I understand it, this year the rules were even 'clarified' to not allow a fielder to set up like that even if he's about to receive the throw.

I see catchers positioned between home and 3rd, awaiting a throw, forcing the runner to have to avoid a tag or slide around them. If what you say above is true how can a catcher set up to apply a tag? I'm not saying you're wrong, it just seems if what you say is true, pretty much every play made would require some type of "timming" to insure the fielder and ball arrive at the base at approx the same time.

quote:

As I understand it, this year the rules were even 'clarified' to not allow a fielder to set up like that even if he's about to receive the throw.

[QOUTE] I see catchers positioned between home and 3rd, awaiting a throw, forcing the runner to have to avoid a tag or slide around them. If what you say above is true how can a catcher set up to apply a tag? I'm not saying you're wrong, it just seems if what you say is true, pretty much every play made would require some type of "timming" to insure the fielder and ball arrive at the base at approx the same time. [/QUOTE]

I know! This is going to be a great discussion. I think it's been been brought up before here in ATU. I don't have my 08RB with me, so I await the quotes (and scenarios). The fielder just has to set-up for the throw without blocking, IMHO, reasonable progress to the base. Just in front, just behind, straddle...

MST, dash, whoever... wasn't there a change or clarification this year on this?

I know you can't block the base anticipating the ball will be thrown to you, but if in the act of rec a throw, you position yourself between the runner and the base that's within the rules. Let's face facts, at any level, not every throw is going to be on the money, if receving the throw takes you into a position where you're blocking the base, I think that's within the rules.

This is one that totally depends upon what rule book (e.g. what league you are playing in)... Professional rules (OBR) are different than college are different than High School (Fed) are different than youth baseball (often based on OBR but with modifications for safety)

In this case, I see the OP said 11-12 and Little league - in that case Obstruction rule says you cannot be in the baseline without the ball.

08

my son played a game yesterday. we were winning 9-1 . this is varsity baseball. as I was leaving the umpire said to me hey your kid didnt like the strike zone at the end of the game.(we know this umpire) my son has a very good eye and hits balls that are in the zone. I said to him they werent strikes that you were calling. he said when a team is up 9-1 the strike zone will change and they better be swinging.
My opinion its varsity baseball, not good for the pitchers to have strikes called 4-5 inches off the plate, high up in the eyes.its not little league. the strike zone should not change at the end of the game.
my son was 2-4, but his last at bat was just having horrible calls made, he ended up swinging out of the zone on A 3-2 and hit a soft line drive to third because it was ball 4 and he would of called strike three.
Im seeing a lot of hs umpires call way too liberal of a strike zone. they already say they call it 3 inches outside and told us that. what the h--is the plate for, might as well remove it if its not the strike zone.

HS and College obstruction rules are essentially the same (FED changed for 2008 to comport with NCAA). The fielder cannot block the base or be in the runner's basepath without possession of the ball. All that "imminent play" and "in the act of fielding" stuff is gone. The fielder must have the ball or its OBS.

fanofgame: I understand your angst at that strike zone. It shouldn't change in the middle of a game no matter what the score.

That said, a varsity HS (or even college) plate is wider than 17". A baseball width on the outside and maybe a little less than that inside is expected, especially by coaches. Keep it honest up, and the hollow of the knee is low enough down and you'll have a good game with the bats being swung by all. Those pitches a few inches outside are very hittable. The only time you will find a major league strike zone is in the major leagues.

I'll probably take some lumps now, but that's the way it is everywhere.

The OP is LL so the fielder must have the ball before the runner gets there unless the ball takes him to that position. It sounds like he is being coached to set up in front of the bag and make the throw come to him. This was always obstruction in OBR but not usually properly. Many guys believed he was making a play and was OK to be there. This was an incorrect reading of the rule and forced rulemakers to rewrite the obstruction rule to make it almost impossible not to call.

Well Im glad my son swings at first pitches if there good. i understand some lberalness on each side but to change strike zone because other team is losing is bogus. it doesnt teach anyone anything.
most hs players want to hit, no one is standing up there for a walk for the most part. my son has walked once all season and is hitting over .500 so that tells you how aggressive he is at the plate.
he will know next time this guy umpires to swing at first pitch if itsd good. we always tell him never leave it up to an umpire to take you out of the at bat.

fanofgame & dash_riprock:

The strike zone is the strike zone is the strike zone. It is written down in plain, easily understandable english [and other languages, I assume] and is discernible. It is the strike zone throughout the game and it is the strike zone in every game. A baseball width outside is giving the pitcher too much [even if it is a fraction of a milimeter too much] and a little less inside may or may not be correct depending on what is meant by "a little less." Up honest, I hope means somewhere around the armpits and the hollow of the knee is a great description. So I am saying that I basically agree with you. However, stating that "those pitches a few inches outside are very hittable" will never, in my mind, justify calling a ball a strike. I hope that you were not implying that it does.

TW344

quote:

Originally posted by TW344:
fanofgame & dash_riprock:

The strike zone is the strike zone is the strike zone. It is written down in plain, easily understandable english [and other languages, I assume] and is discernible. It is the strike zone throughout the game and it is the strike zone in every game. A baseball width outside is giving the pitcher too much [even if it is a fraction of a milimeter too much] and a little less inside may or may not be correct depending on what is meant by "a little less." Up honest, I hope means somewhere around the armpits and the hollow of the knee is a great description. So I am saying that I basically agree with you. However, stating that "those pitches a few inches outside are very hittable" will never, in my mind, justify calling a ball a strike. I hope that you were not implying that it does.

TW344

Basically you agree with me? Are you kidding? We don't agree on anything but the hollow of the knee. A wide plate is universal. Your strike zone will lead to some very long, boring poorly-played games.

Hitters and pitchers want consistency from a plate umpire. They just want it the same for the whole game. Umpires have different zones. There are no laser beams outlining the strike zone for every hitter. The umpire has to estimate the strike zone 250 times a game.

I can tell you for sure that high school and college coaches want the bats being swung. They expect a pitch a bit off the plate to be called a strike. Many times I have rung up a pitch a baseball off the plate, and heard the coach say "you gotta take that pitch the other way Johnny." It makes for a much better game.

BTW: in high school varsity and above, a pitch at the armpits is up, considerably. It is much easier to hit a pitch 2" outside in than some cheddar up there.

Sorry to be so harsh, but if I called the zone you described, I'd get chewed to bits.

My point is you should not change the strike zone in the middle of a varsity baseball game becuase the score is onesided. thats why there is a 10 run mercy rule. changing strike zone after it has been established is ridiculous.
if you want it liberal whatever the players will live with it and make adjustments, no one can control that but once established it should not change.

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
My point is you should not change the strike zone in the middle of a varsity baseball game becuase the score is onesided. thats why there is a 10 run mercy rule. changing strike zone after it has been established is ridiculous.
if you want it liberal whatever the players will live with it and make adjustments, no one can control that but once established it should not change.

No one has disagreed with that.

dashriprock

I was just saying i understand that sometimes strike zones are more liberal, one of the posters was asking if I thought that was ok. I cant change that. whatever the strike zone is the player has to figure that out at his first AB.
My main point when originally posting was once established keep it consistent.
in a pefect world strike zone would be the strike zone no exception, but we all know we dont live in a perfect world.my particular player is a very aggressive hitter so he knows beeter than to leave it to the umpire. he swings at all good pitches.

dash:

Don't you think that you should consult with higher authority that the coach of the day before you change the rulebook? Since when are you supposed to call the game the way the coaches want instead of the way the rule book says? If it is to keep your job then have at it.

I guess we do disagree a whole lot more than I thought.

Sorry to be so harsh but I really thought we were only disagreeing on the outside pitch.

TW344