What bothers me is the degree with which UGA over-recruited / under-estimated the number of players who would be leaving. It is one thing to have a couple of extras - it is another to have 10+ surplus.

I suppose another thing that really bothers me is the imbalance in the negotiation. I am a economist by education so please bear with me .

Economics 101 teaches you that that in ANY negotiation, doing your homework and understanding the situation is critical. It also teaches you that in a perfectly efficient market, information is readily available to both buyers and sellers.

The problem is that in this case, the sellers (UGA) has all of the information and experience - and the buyers (players and their parents) have virtually none - and getting accurate information is difficult if not impossible.

Making the imbalance even worse is the cost of making a mistake. If the school makes a mistake, they can send the player on their way at zero or at worst 1 years scholarship. If the player makes a mistake, thanks to the new rules, he cannot simply switch to another school - he is highly restricted in where he can go.

A good analogy can be made to when you are arguing with the IRS at the time of an audit - they have all the power, they do it every day - you have no power and you (hopefully) don't do this often.

What needs to change in all of this is that the information needs to be more readily available to the players. I know that this site provides a great resource - but even here people are reluctant to discuss what they have learned for fear of retribution either from the college baseball establishment or from the "HWBBW oldtimers". Reading this thread, if I were new to the site, I would be very hesitant to post about another program if I had had a similar experience to the UGA recruits.

Just my two cents,

08

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Baseball Maven:
He doesn't have the money to go to college or the grades for HOPE scholarship so he is out. Now he is scrambling to figure out what he does next.

If he couldn't afford college tuition, grades below for Hope money, was Perno giving him a 100% scholley?

Could it be possible that he got a partial and would not be able to afford out of state tuition or the full balance of another four year school?

.

quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
Making the imbalance even worse is the cost of making a mistake. If the school makes a mistake, they can send the player on their way at zero or at worst 1 years scholarship. If the player makes a mistake, thanks to the new rules, he cannot simply switch to another school - he is highly restricted in where he can go.

Yep. Was a recent thread that extolled all the wonderful virtues of the new rules...

Yea, right.

44
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08DAD you are basically right. I also have a background in economics and accounting. It has severved me well over the years. I have been audited and can tell you it isn't fair. They have guidlines that the public are nopt aware of and are not written in any legislation. EG if you do repair & maintenance in the 1st year of acquisition of a rental property they capitalize that amount instead of allowing a write off of the full amount. Sp if you spend 25,000 you can only depreciate 4% in Canada instead of the full write off of 25,000. There are many other self imposed gems.
This is much like the colleges who don't tell you the dark side of recruiting and what can happen if you don't fit their plans. The info is there but you have to search high and low for it and most people just want to sign at a school without regard to the reality of what can happen.
When my son said he wanted to go to the US to play D1 ball we were not caught up in it. We didn't live our lives for it and I only found out in his senior year that he wanted to do this. We saved no money for college because it only costs $4500. for tuition for undergrad at a top school. When I started his campiagn to find a school it was an outlet for me and I had a blast doing it. I did my due diligence, talked to college recruiters etc. No one mention over recruiting. When my son arrived at college he was shocked to find 8-19 players more than the roster size they usually carried. He called home and said at 6'3 he was a pip squeek amoung giants. He asked the coach if he was on the team or just trying out. The coach replied I paid way too much to keep you on the bench. That was the 1st time I ever heard about over recruiting. I talk to hundrteds of players and they never mentioned it until I brought the topic up. Most of the guys didn't last at the same school past their Soph year. Lots of injuries to players who were dumped after the i9njury.
My personal feeling was that trying out to get a roster spot made it more exciting and more rewarding. If he was cut he would have come home and gone to a college here. I had no emotional investment in this at all other than the fun BB provided for him and me.
I know how excited some get over signing but it just never was like that for me or my son. He has had 3 wonderful years in a wonderful city, got a great education, made amazing friemds and it cost me about the same as it would have if he went locally. I am actually starting to get excited as it draws to an end.
People who come to this site have some great advice from experienced posters and have the tools to make an informed decision if that is at all possible. There is still a lot of luck involved and it can come down to how your son interacts with the team and the coaches. When you are dating they are always on their best behaviour.

I agree with TPMs post.

To TPM,

The player I mentioned who had his scholly withdrawn due to too many players coming was promised 80%, fyi. In the end, it didn't matter; he was sent to go look for "other opportunities" at the 11th hour.

TPM, re: UGA coaches' vague responses may have indicated lack of interest, but UGA pursued him so I think it was more of a case of not wanting to deal with a kid wasn't "starstruck" and demanded "quid pro quo" commitment; they were probably uncomfortable with this; in the end, it didn't matter. Re: homework/Perno overrecruiting, pls read my earlier posts; I said we did our homework, set criteria, took a fact-based approach; eliminated emotion; held integrity at the top of the list. Re: would my son have signed if offered?; No, as I said earlier, he looked at many schools based on his own criteria and UGA didn't make the cut, partly due to history of overrecruiting; UGA got ruled out very early; son signed early with another D-1 program that met his criteria. Re: why drafted players return; to have a better year, get better draft/compensation next year. Re: it happens everywhere; I agree it happens too often, but not everywhere; and there are plenty of winning programs that don't intentionally overrecruit--it is not a requirement. Re: Perno being disliked; I didn't say that; he is worshipped by some and reviled by others, just like most coaches of high profile programs. Re: it doesn't work for some, it works for others; agreed, but unfortunately too many kids sign without the adequate research to make a well-informed decision; ideally any kid should be able to look a coach in the eye and say, "I am looking for a program that meets MY criteria, now tell me how your program fits and if you are going to live up to your obligations". Now the old school guys on this web site would call that "not respecting authority" or not being a "team player". I call that being a mature man looking out for his own best interests; instead of serving the best interests of a multi-million dollar coach. Sounds fair to me and this is how I raised my son.

Unfortunately, some Coaches are very skilled at playing emotionally/financially vulnerable players like a violin and damaging their futures (and other college programs who would love to have those players) -- without fear of NCAA repercussions. My message is that the NCAA needs to intervene before this gets further out of hand. I don't have a dog in the UGA overrecruiting "hunt" but I don't want to see players' (or other good baseball programs') opportunities impaired due to overrecruiting and the lop-sided nature of the NLI process either.

BTW, 08Dad. You are right. Too many of the "Old Timers are quick to jump on any criticism of any program -- or any discussion by "newby" posters. Most of the newbies are preyed upon like bait to sharks with intense criticism. It this web site is to be instructional, objective criticism and debate should be encouraged. This is not a pep rally.

How else will prospective parents and players know what to research in this process and how to make good decisions? As I have said before -- there is a lot of good info and a lot of good posters in this web site; readers should pick and choose what they want to use.

BM,
I am not understanding this. If a coach gives a player 80%, that means he was pretty darn good. 80% baseball, academic? If my son was offered 80% baseball money, signed an NLI and told before he sets foot on campus that they were withdrawing his NLI for any reason other than academics, I am headed to the highest person on the totem pole. Did all of these players told not to come sign an NLI?

Your son made a decision that was right for him, and although I am not disagreeing with over recruiting (hate it actually), I know of some people here whose players did their homework, knew the situation yet decided to attend and not told they couldn't be on the team.

You are correct, this site should be instructional with objective criticism on the college recruiting process, but have you done that?

LSU had 39 players on its roster last year. 3 were seniors and 3 underclassmen signed with MLB, leaving 33 current players. 13 freshmen are coming in, none of which signed with the pros, as far as I can tell. That adds up to 46 players. Even if half signed with the MLB, there would still be 40 players on the roster. That's 10 players the head coach is going to have to cut....total bull****.

quote:

Originally posted by Louisiana Lightning:
LSU had 39 players on its roster last year. 3 were seniors and 3 underclassmen signed with MLB, leaving 33 current players. 13 freshmen are coming in, none of which signed with the pros, as far as I can tell. That adds up to 46 players. Even if half signed with the MLB, there would still be 40 players on the roster. That's 10 players the head coach is going to have to cut....total bull****.

Won't he have to cut 11 players that won't be able to play this year at the D1 level this year and or possibly next year as well?

Actually if all 46 show up he will have to cut 11. The fall will be very interesting wont it?

I believe that character and a persons word are the most important thing they have. If a coach brings in kids with the understanding they will be a part of the baseball program and then they cut them because they over recruited they have no character and their word means nothing.

They should plan for 35 and if things do not work out they should be prepared to play with less than 35. Or you can plan for 46 and prepare to keep the best 35. But be prepared to build a reputation of being a program that does just that. And do not be surprised in the future when it becomes harder and harder to recruit.

Now if a coach is up front and says "I can not tell you who and who will not be on the team. We will determine that in the fall." I can respect that and then the player can make the decision and live with the results. But to recruit more than you can keep and use this type of tactic as a tryout situation without being up front about it is wrong.

People say do your homework. There is no way to be on the outside and know what is going on on the inside. If a coach offers a kid a scholley and says "We want you to be a part of our program." Is that enough? Should that be enough? IMO if the coach has any character at all and his worth a plug nickle it should be.

What is wrong with being up front and saying "We want you to come and tryout for the team. We can not be sure you will make it. But we sure would like you to come." The answer is obvious. Most if not all will seek another situation. No they wait until it is too late because they know you will not come if you know the deal before you come.

I am not accusing anyone of doing this. I have no inside information about UGA or LSU or anyother program doing this. But we all know its going on. And you can bet we will know where it is going on by the end of the fall season. Just like we will learn where it is not going on as well.

Before the 35 man limit it was common knowledge that certain programs brought in way more players than they planned on keeping. They would then farm those players out to local JC's and call upon them a year or two later if they showed promise. Some programs would carry 45-50 players and then farm out another 10-15 guys. Not a bad minor league system and it worked well for these college programs.

I know some will disagree with me. Thats fine I respect everyones opinion. But to me if your not up front and honest with the players your bringing in you are wrong. There is no other way around it , your wrong. And then dont forget about the players that have invested 1 2 3 4 years into your program only to be told that there is no room for you anymore. They have done everything you have asked of them. They have been a devoted team member and represented your program and school in a first class manner. Now your going to tell them there is no room for them? Something just doesnt sound right about that to me. Maybe I am wrong. But in my heart I dont believe I am.

I know this is big time sports. College baseball and the coach needs to win to keep his job. What makes a coach believe he is going to "win" by being dishonest and unfair to those that have bought into his program and layed it on the line for him? If thats what it takes to win I would never want to be a part of that.

I never was too good at math! You are correct he will have to cut 10.

quote:

They should plan for 35 and if things do not work out they should be prepared to play with less than 35. Or you can plan for 46 and prepare to keep the best 35. But be prepared to build a reputation of being a program that does just that. And do not be surprised in the future when it becomes harder and harder to recruit.

...

I know this is big time sports. College baseball and the coach needs to win to keep his job. What makes a coach believe he is going to "win" by being dishonest and unfair to those that have bought into his program and layed it on the line for him? If thats what it takes to win I would never want to be a part of that.

Coach May,

Well put

Just look at Fresno states roster. I think it had 27. They won the college world series without over recruiting.It can be done. It is just unfair for these boys to have no where to go if they are being misled. the coaches should face a penalty for this type of recruiting.

The only way to fix the problem is for the parents & players to raise enough s*** and take their problem to the presidents of the universities. I can promise you 2 things: 1. Most of the presidents do not know what is going on 2. The head coach wants little if anything to do with answering to the president of the university

I think most coaches tell a player each year that they will have to compete for a spot . In fact they tell them no positions are safe.
I just came from a college tryout here. There were 45 players and usually there are 60-70 trying out. The 1st day 10 were cut. Today another 10 will go. I keep hearing that no player is safe. Fortunately we don't have all the tough rules NCAA has. I laugh when I hear parents hoping the team will join the NAIA or NCAA which is a possibility . I tell them they had better hope they don't get what they wish for.
I sat with a parent and his son was clearly not going to make the team but the coaches gave him every chance and were very fair with all the players.
The SIT rule is the biggest problem in trhe NCAA.

I agree with TPM. If my son signed an NLI and the coach reneged on it I would sue them.

So what is the deal? Did players sign an NLI and turned away (I thought it was a bindding agreement) or were players invited to come play and told if they made the team they would get X amount scholarship?
Coach May is correct about honestly in recruiting and there have been many programs that over recruit, players kow it yet still sign NLI and show up for a uni. I think a good practice here would be to discuss what goes on at certain programs (over recruiting, but not sure why the need to bash coaches. Just mentioning that a program has more show up in fall needed is enough to make people aware to do their homework that this happens will continue to happen, even with new rules in place.
JMO.

Based on the players we know and/or have heard about that have verbally committed to UGA for '09, UGA will have over 45 players entering fall '09 unless they cut players again.

Plus I have heard some of these players have agreed to walk-on even though they had offers from other big programs.