I was talking with a father last night who also had a son on the road to Omaha but they lost in the Super Regional. He was saying that several of the returners received notice this week that they were not going to on the roster this season. He stated that they always have a very large recruiting class come in each year and several of the recruits don’t make it on the roster and several of the returners are let go each year, far and above players signing or not signing due to the draft.

I agree with the roster limitations but coaches have the experience to work through this and the new recruits do not and those on the team have very little options if they want to continue to play at the D1 level.

Why is it that coaches are not held accountable for their over recruiting?

There is no rule or law that says a coach can't recruit as nany as he wishes or needs. So I am not sure what he would be accountable for. I have heard horror stories for years from guys who have been dumped. I have also heard success stories from guys who were dumped and went on to have outstanding careerers. The only thing that is unfair is the sit rule and to put the APR above the fair treatment of athletes who are cut.

This may sound a bit stupid but the schools that supposedly "overrecruit" are well known are they not?

This being the case why do kids keep signing on at these schools?

Nobody has a gun to their head---if I am the coach and the kids keep coming I keep doing what I am doing---Georgia certainly reaped the benefits this past season


Keep in mind that recruiting is a two way street

Athletic scholarships should be abolished and all universities should be forced to meet 100% of financial need, just like the Ivies do it. Columbia University won the Ivy League this year and went on to a regional tournament where they were defeated by Coastal Carolina and East Carolina. There were players from very poor families on the team and some from middle class and wealthy families, but Columbia paid in grants 100% of their respective family's need, which is that portion of the college's cost expected to be paid by the family given the family's financial situation. Columbia's yearly cost is $51,000. Some families pay nothing and some pay all of it. I have had one child graduate from there and the other currently attends and is on the volleyball team. To be on an Ivy League team is more a source of pride than anything else. That's what it should be for all athletes. That football players get 100% scholarship and there are 85 of them is a huge injustice.

After this year plays out at D1's across the nation with this phenomenon of over-recruiting by Coaches either intentionally or unintentionally I think we'll begin to see the NLI and LOI change dramatically. I think we'll see players and parents begin to give at most to Coaches a verbal which won't lock them in later in the year if they see/hear that State U has signed 15-20 players. They may feel the need to "open up" talks with perhaps other D1's but most likely D2's and beyond. Why not? A Coach signs a kid in November he has that kid locked up basically from being recruited and looked at the remainder of the season. Over-recruiting will change the face and glamour of NLI periods.

IMO, I think that the HC at UGA knew good and well what he was doing by signing all these kids during the year and what he was going to have to do eventually. Had these kids even remotely knew this chance of being dismissed before the school year even began they would not have signed, obviously.

Infield 08- out of curiosity, since you mentioned your neighborhood.... I was wondering about ASU and how it panned out for them in the draft as I know they signed many new recruits too. Do you have any numbers as to how many of their new recruits were drafted and signed? And how many of their current players signed? Thanks.

Some coaches will tell you that there should be integrity and honesty that is involved in recruiting. This is not about letting players go after a year, but allowing new players to show up that have a definite place on the roster and a chance to prove themselves and not telling then that if they don't give up their NLI and play for a year at JUCO they will pay the consequences. There is a huge difference between over recruiting and stock piling.

I do agree that honesty works both ways, a HC signs a player then suddenly it all is about the draft.

Players use their signing status to increase their draft slot. Players tell coaches they are coming in the fall yet telling scouts they want to play pro ball. The coach has to protect himself. So in some sense, many players have helped to create the situation. The player that will get caught in the middle of this mess is not the top signing recruit.

CABB, I was responding to rbinaz's remark about his neighborhood. Perhaps he can shed some light on the situation at ASU.

The only hope is to curb an indifferent NCAA. Baseball has nuances that need to be adressed. Plenty of smart people on all sides. But how to get them together? How do you get the NCAA to admit shabby management?

Can't do it through the court system.

Only hope the court of public opinion.

I'd say a segment of 60 minutes would motivate the right people with the right motivations to get together. The NCAA does not like bad press.

No expose - no chance.

This has been a very interesting thread and hopefully will educate parents and players making these decisions in the coming months.

We called 07 teammates and parents and asked their impressions about schools in their conference. We heard players with regrets about signing for the prestige. We also heard the over recruiting stories, which by the way happens in Juco too. (Think about who is being bumped at the Juco for the UGA players now looking to move.) Taking pride out of the decision was the best advice I read in this thread.

We were told by a parent of an 07 grad to go where they really wanted him, to understand that the money talks. We are seeing the truth in that statement by watching what is happening to other 08 players. Unfortunately I think the GA hope program creates misconception that some students are scholarship atheletes. I would suspect that many of the players cut from UGA are not receiving athletic scholarships. It happens in schools all over GA, Juco too. It's very easy to recruit players with Hope eligibility. Don't misunderstand, our son will go into this fall knowing that he has to prove his worth as a scholarship athlete and still earn his spot on the team, but he's going without the added pressure that some are now facing.

If you're starting this process with your player, take a step back, take off the blinders, and leave pride out of the picture. Go to games unannounced and just sit discreetly in the stands listening and observing. Take it all in, the campus, the students, and especially your son's impressions. The fit is the most important factor. Thank goodness we finally visited a school where our son left saying "this feels right".

By the way, uninformed local sports writers make me crazy! I just read an article in our local paper about baseball signings. "The best players sign D1 in Nov, bad grades or fringe players go Juco, blah, blah, blah" Bad information leads to bad decisions!

I have a question on this subject, it is mentioned that you can find out how many athletes have been recruited at a certain school. Where is this information posted?

Two, if my son doesn't get that scholarship his worth in the draft is considerably less, .i.e college did not think student good enough, so why would we pay $$$. Thank you.

I don't think this report from PG Crosschecker posted in March has been mentioned in this discussion. College Recruiting Rankings for 2008 High School Classes I thought it was pretty interesting.

PUH dad, Scout.com has a lot of variations that show the recruits for colleges.

Pop what does college scholarship have to do with with the pro draft?
Not aware of any info on recruits and who they signed with.
There are approx 10,000 players playing D1 and the PG guys are a small amount of that. That is certainly not a complete list as they state. JC transfers are not even a large amount over all. College teams have to build depth and the do that by signing HS grads with 4 years to play/develope. Most colleges do not reveal their total signings and their walk ons.

Here is another list from 2008 class. 2009 list will come out in November and added to through next summer.
pgcrosschecker 2008 college committment list

BHD,
Having a college scholarship offered and accepted by a high school senior who is then drafted is extremely important.
The first, and most compelling reason is that it gives the draftee leverage in the negotiations to get him signed. With out the college scholarship, the player is a bit like a senior sign, but younger...they have no leverage. I believe the Brewers, in 2007, made a young man without a college scholarship option a first round selection. He ended up signing for several hundred thousand below slot money.
The other reason the scholarship offer is significant is that it helps in valuing the college scholarship plan the MLB team will fund as part of the negotiations/contract, assuming the player includes it as important and then uses it.
If someone is a high school graduate who is drafted high and does not have the college scholarship as his option, he is pretty much without any leverage in the negotiations because he does not have an option to which he is committed and from which the MLB offer must convince him to switch.
Hope that helps.

I am aware of that . However a higher round guy may not have any leverage to start with. Most early round guys have scholarships. The lack of a scholarsip will not affect a later round guy as I know several who had no college prospects and were signed.
There are tons of guys who sign and were not college eligible. .If they get a bonus it is based on skill and guys who are college elligible and get bonuses are usulaly scholarship guys.

Thanks for the list, PG. Clicking on the last column, College Commitment will group all the recruits for a particular school. You have to work it a bit. For Georgia, click page 5 then when it loads click College Commitment. That seems to be a lot easier than digging through Scout.com. I was looking for a couple of examples there and couldn't find what I wanted.

infielddad,
That's what I was thinking. Well put.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

many of the players they recruit and give the impression that they will play do not have the talent.

I understand that there are many players that want to attend a college that is in state and also a big time program in a top conference.

What I don't understand is why recruiters at a national power program would give the impression of playing time to kids who lack the necessary talent to play there. That seems like a waste of valuable recruiting time.

I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS BUT I RECALL THAT BEAR BRYANT FOUGHT THE NCAA WHEN IT PUT LIMITS ON FOOTBALL ROSTERS AND SCHOLARSHIPS. WHEN ASKED WHY, HE REPLIED "I'LL SIGN ANYONE WHO CAN PLAY WELL FOR ME OR AGAINST ME AND I SURE DON'T WANT TO PLAY AGAINST 'EM."

CLEARLY THERE ARE PROGRAMS, LIKE UGA, THAT USE SAME APPROACH. IF THEY CAN GET A GOOD KID TO SIGN, THE KID IS TAKEN OUT OF THE MARKET -- AT LEAST FOR A WHILE, MAYBE PERMANENTLY. MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE COACH, AS LONG AS HE SUCCEEDS IN FIELDING EITHER KEEPING THE TALENT OR KEEPING THE TALENT AWAY FROM THE COMPETITION.

AS I COUNT THE UGA RESULTS, THEY HAVE 55 PLAYERS EITHER SIGNED NLI'S OR RETURNING. FIVE PLAYERS WERE DRAFTED IN THE TOP 10 ROUNDS. ASSUMING ALL 5 GO PRO, THAT LEAVES 50 PLAYERS TOTAL IN BEST CASE SCENARIO.

PER THE NCAA, FOR THIS YEAR THERE WILL BE 30 SCHOLLY POSITIONS AND 35 ROSTER SPOTS -- MEANING AT LEAST 30 KIDS ARE GOING TO BE TOLD, "SORRY PARD, MORE PLAYERS SHOWED UP THAN PLANNED AND WE RAN OUT OF SLOTS -- NO SCHOLLY, NO ROSTER SPOT. BY THE WAY, IF YOU ATTEND EVEN ONE CLASS, YOU WILL SUFFER THE TRANSFER RULE. WE CAN RELEASE YOU FROM THE NLI AND YOU CAN PURSUE ANOTHER PROGRAM -- IF YOU AGREE 'NO HARM, NO FOUL' OTHERWISE YOU CAN SIT ON THE BENCH FOR A YEAR, GET CUT AND THEN HAVE TO SIT OUT A YEAR; AND WHO'S GONNA' WANT YOU AFTER BEING OUT OF BASEBALL TWO YEARS ALONG WITH A REPUTATION OF NOT BEING A 'TEAM PLAYER'. HERE'S YOUR HAT, NOW RUN ALONG."

MY SON WAS RECRUITED BY UGA, THAT WAS HIS FIRST CHOICE -- UNTIL HE FOUND OUT HE HAD WAY TOO MANY FELLOW HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS TELLING HIM THE SAME STORY HE WAS TOLD BY UGA COACHES. THEN HE DIDN'T FEEL SO SPECIAL; IN FACT HE FELT BETRAYED. I TOLD HIM TO BE WARY -- THE NLI PROCESS FAVORS THE SCHOOLS, NOT THE PLAYERS. WE LOOKED A LOT OF OTHER SCHOOLS AND ULTIMATELY FOUND ONE (D-1) WITH A GREAT PROGRAM, GREAT COACHES WHO DON'T DO THE "TELL THEM ALL THEY ARE THE BEST; AND WE'LL LOCK 'EM AWAY FROM THE COMPETITION AND CUT THE EXCESS JUST BEFORE SCHOOL STARTS."

PARENTS INVOLVEMENT IN THIS PROCESS IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT. DON'T BE OVERIMPRESSED BY THESE COACHES -- THERE'S NOT A ROCKET SCIENTIST AMONG THEM; IF THEY WEREN'T IN THEIR CURRENT POSITION, THEY WOULD LIKELY BE COACHING AT THE LOCAL HIGH SCHOOL. TEACHING PE AND COACHING A TRAVEL TEAM IN THE SUMMER.

AND FIND SOMEONE WHO DOES PERSONAL INSTRUCTION/SCOUTING FOR COLLEGE/PRO TEAMS. WE DID AND HE HAD PERSONAL INSIGHTS THAT WE WOULD NEVER HAVE ACQUIRED WITHOUT HIM. IN FACT, HE WARNED US ABOUT UGA AND OTHER PROGRAMS AND GAVE US GOOD ADVICE ON VARIOUS COACHES PHILOSOPHIES. ALSO, REALISTICALLY DISCUSS WITH YOUR SON: GETTING PLAYING TIME, BEING ASSURED A SPOT, QUALITY EDUCATION. COMPARE OLD ROSTERS AND LOOK AT THE CHANGES AND YEARS OF THE PLAYERS. IF YOU SEE THAT A BIG PROGRAM HAS A LOT OF PLAYER TURNOVER AND SIGNS FAR TOO MANY; WELL, THAT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE INCENTIVES IN THE RECRUITING PROCESS AT HIGH LEVELS OF COLLEGE COMPETITION REWARD WINNING WHILE COMPLYING WITH THE BARE MINIMUM NCAA REQUIREMENTS; NO REWARDS FOR HONESTY, INTEGRITY, PLAYER DEVELOPMENT OR ANYTHING ELSE OF MORAL VALUE. THE UNOFFICIAL MOTTO IS "WIN, AND COMPLY WITH THE NCAA RULES; OR AT LEAST DON'T GET CAUGHT."

THE NCAA NEEDS TO GET A BETTER HANDLE ON THIS SITUATION IN BASEBALL. IT NEEDS MORE SCHOLARSHIPS AND MAKE THEM FULL FOR ALL ON THE ROSTER. ROSTER LIMITS ARE OK AT 30. ANY MORE AND THE COACHES JUST DO THE BEAR BRYANT ACT. ALSO HAVE NLI'S LIMITED TO THE NUMBER OF OPEN ROSTER SLOTS -- ONCE THEY ARE USED UP, NO MORE NLI OFFERS UNTIL NEXT YEAR. IF A PROGRAM SIGNS PLAYERS THEY BELIEVE WILL BE DRAFTED, WELL, THAT'S A HIGH-RISK, HIGH REWARD SITUATION -- AND THOSE PLAYERS WILL BE PICKED UP BY ANY NUMBER OF SCHOOL IF THEY DON'T GO PRO. PROGRAMS WHO SIGN TOO MANY PLAYERS WILL HAVE TO PAY THE SCHOLLY ANYWAY AND WILL HAVE THERE ROSTER REDUCED THE NEXT YEAR BY THE SAME NUMBER OF EXCESS SIGNEES.

MY SON WILL PLAY ON A TEAM THAT WILL PLAY AGAINST UGA NEXT SEASON AND HE IS FIRED-UP. BUT HE FEELS BAD FOR SEVERAL OF HIS GOOD FRIENDS WHO SIGNED WITH UGA, THEN CALLED TO SAY THEY HEARD 23 FRESHMEN WERE SIGNED AND WERE TOLD, "YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SIGNED IF YOU DIDN'T THINK YOU WERE GOOD ENOUGH; BUT YOU'RE COMMITTED NOW SO YOU NEED TO HONOR YOUR COMMITTMENT. BESIDES, THIS HAPPENS EVERY YEAR AND IT ALWAYS WORKS OUT." UNFORTUNATELY, THE UGA COACH DIDN'T SAY: IT WORKS OUT FOR UGA, BUT NOT THE PLAYER.

Brings to mind that old adage about lying down with dawgs...
More fallout to come on this. The handwriting was on the wall for those who kept their eyes open. BTW, Maven, pls review Board Manners regarding all Caps (altho your outrage is perfectly understandable).