Coach Merc, I have a question. If a player's award is monetary (not in percentage), how is that counted towards the 11.7? Let's say tuition is 20K and the award is 5K, how does money have nothing to do with it? Why do coaches give some percentage and some money?
Posts: 11027 | Location: South Florida | Registered: July 28, 2003
All D-I's are allowed 11.7.....some are fully funded and some are not....
Fully funded means that they are allowed 11.7 out of state.....partially funded means that they have a certain amount of money allocated towards in-state and out-of-state respectively...they still can give 11.7 but it is up to the instituion's discretion of the breakdown....some D-I's may only have 9 scholarships....some 7 etc...just because the NCAA says you can have 11.7 does not mean all D-I's are equal.
If the institution is FULLY FUNDED and OUT OF STATE tuition/books/room and board and fees are 10K then they have $107,000.00 to offer.....Each school's compliance department gives them a percentage breakdown of scholarship $$....for example it may be.....
tuiton and fees = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship room = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship meals = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship books = certain amt of $$$ = which come to a certain % of 1 scholarship
This total of $$$ will equal 1 scholarship
In-state breakdown will be different....
Posts: 462 | Location: Indiana | Registered: January 31, 2006
LSU is fully funded....meaning they have 11.7 scholarships to offer....all out of state if needed.....total 11.7
Austin Peay State University is partially funded......meaning they may only have 6 in state scholarships and 5.7 out of state scholarships to give....total 11.7
The NCAA allows 11.7, but it is up to the institution to divide it as they see fit....Meaning, that it behooves some institutions to sign in-state kids....some institutions may pressure coaches to do so....some may not....
Posts: 462 | Location: Indiana | Registered: January 31, 2006
Academic aid can count against the 11.7 in some cases....not all....there are exceptions....see NCAA or talk to coach.....The coach will obviously want to do what benefits him/program/institution.
Posts: 462 | Location: Indiana | Registered: January 31, 2006
TPM Hi, The situation you mention where the offer is in $$$ and not percentages makes no difference to the school only the player. In your example above the player receives $5K of the total coast of $20K. For the programs purposes, that player is a .25 qualifier as he's receiving 25%. The benefit to the program for offers made in dollar amounts is:
Using your above example, the school makes the recruit an offer of $5K in September, the player accepts and signs his NLI in November, everyone is happy. That player has used 1/4 of 1 scholarship. When the school bill for freshman year comes, and total college cost is no longer $20K but has increased like everything else these days to $25K, the program just made out on that player because he's still gettting the $5K he signed for but he's only a .20 qualifier since his money is only 20%. The coach now has an additional .05 in scholarship money. If he gets this from a number of players (.05 from 5 players gives him an additional 25%) , it's found money in the spring and allows them to bring in some late signees.Thus the benifit of getting your offer in percentages that will automatically increase.
Where some programs benifit greatly is giving out-of-state players, in-state tuition as a benefit. A player from NY given in-state tuition at a school in SC is given as an offer of say 40% without it counting against any scholarship (difference between in-state and out-of-state). The coach can then make a small $$$ offer of $3K or $4K which on paper with total cost looks like he's getting $13 or $14K. His NLI will still only say $3K.
Have gone through this last year, I saw some very creative accounting done... I think they make it very confusing so that none of us will ever get it 100% correct...
Posts: 1226 | Location: NY | Registered: December 30, 2002
Interesting thread. We've learned you can get a 100% schollie, but can't get it 100% correct!
Don't forget when you are weighing offers that a cash offer is clear, but (as has been pointed out) may well be based on outdated tuition figures. Conversely, when you get a percentage offer, make sure you are very clear about percentage of what. Percentage of tuition is a lot different than percentage of cost of attendance (tuition, fees, room, board, books).
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." --- Terry Pratchett
Originally posted by LOW337: All D-I's are allowed 11.7.....some are fully funded and some are not....
Fully funded means that they are allowed 11.7 out of state.....partially funded means that they have a certain amount of money allocated towards in-state and out-of-state respectively...they still can give 11.7 but it is up to the instituion's discretion of the breakdown....some D-I's may only have 9 scholarships....some 7 etc...just because the NCAA says you can have 11.7 does not mean all D-I's are equal.
If the institution is FULLY FUNDED and OUT OF STATE tuition/books/room and board and fees are 10K then they have $107,000.00 to offer.....Each school's compliance department gives them a percentage breakdown of scholarship $$....for example it may be.....
tuiton and fees = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship room = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship meals = certain amt of $$$ = which comes to a certain % of 1 scholarship books = certain amt of $$$ = which come to a certain % of 1 scholarship
This total of $$$ will equal 1 scholarship
In-state breakdown will be different....
This was my understanding (explained to me by someone where son attends) but as you say, is different at different institutions. Thanks Low.
Coach Merc, Very confusing when you stated that money has NO bearing on scholarhips, my understanding it does. My understanding was the offer on the NLI doesn't always compute to what we think it does, for example, the 100%, when broken down may be 50% to the NCAA. Not sure if that is true.
Orlando, True statement! How's it going? Recently passed through the city of your fav team, was thinking of you!
Posts: 11027 | Location: South Florida | Registered: July 28, 2003
Old Fogie ... errr, Fungo ... ummm, Highly Regarded and Beloved Old Timer is correct SIR (expressed in my best Ed McMahon impersonation)! Great point and should be noted. No one knows for sure what the needs and allocation schemes are from one college to the next. It can become a real chess match when several programs are recruiting the same player. The allocation scheme used was a general rule of thumb used by several programs that I came in contact while navigating these water several years ago. My example was an attempt at putting some realistic sense as to what may be a “reasonable” offer relative to what is available and should not be compared to other D1 sports with regard to what a good offer may be. Coaches may ask you what schools are recruiting you and what they are offering. This is in an effort to gage how much scholarship “capital” they may need to commit in order to sign you. Bottom line it’s the coach or recruiter’s job to sign you as “reasonably” as possible. It is just “is what it is”. What he saves on signing you he may be able to allocate to some one sitting on the fence and vise versa. As well, I didn’t mean to give the impression that there are not full 100% baseball scholarships out there, just that I have not witnessed one. If Fungo says it’s so that enough for me….
Posts: 659 | Location: Cook Co., Illinois, USA | Registered: January 16, 2004
Originally posted by LOW337: Academic aid can count against the 11.7 in some cases....not all....there are exceptions....see NCAA or talk to coach.....The coach will obviously want to do what benefits him/program/institution.
Low337 - thanks for the posts you're saying then that there are some cases then when the player may receive purely academic merit aid (full-tuition, etc.) and that any merit aid $$$'s received by that player count against the program's scholly count? How the school handles this.......is that a conference policy or ncaa across the board? what are the exceptions?
TPM - good question on the $$$ awards or percentage awards and good answer Coach Merc. over 4 years, the difference could really add up then as total coa rises.
thanks to everyone for a good thread. lots of good info.
Some academic money is countable and some is not......I don't recall what counts and what doesn't......
For example....son recieves 50% athletic aid....also gets the equivolent of 20% from fathers work (let's say Ford Auto)... That 20% may count, so any other aid that you will recieve other than atletic aid, please disclose to the coach/compliance so that may look into what is countable or not....
Not as confusing as I make it, I'm sure.....LOL
Posts: 462 | Location: Indiana | Registered: January 31, 2006
I do have a question, has anybody heard of any new developments from the NCAA about expanding the 11.7 scholarship allotment?
I saw an article in Baseball America last August that the baseball committee looked at some preliminary models for increasing scholarships in baseball. One proposes raising the limit of 11.7 scholarships to about 14, still to be divvied between several players. The other is more radical, proposing 27 individual scholarships that cover tuition and fees only--leaving the responsibility of paying for housing, food and books on the students. That number was selected because an average of 26.8 players on Division I teams received some sort of scholarship aid in 2005. They indicated the second model with tuition scholarships would tighten the gap between public and private schools.
I was my understanding that they would further project these models and present them to the committee in last November’s meeting in an attempt to get the scholarship package on the legislative cycle in the future.
It is my understanding the private universities are pushing for it to level the playing field with the public universities.
A spokesperson in the article stated,"The one nice thing about it is now cost for all kids is going to be pretty much the same because room and board is pretty much the same between all universities--public and private. (Recruiters) would be selling the school, academics and program tradition--not the cost anymore."
Collegiate baseball has came a long ways for a number universities in the past decade, so I could see where expansion of scholarships would make sense. However, on the flip side I could see where it might create a market of haves versus the have nots. Nevertheless, expansion could help the finanical burden for more baseball families.
Coach Merc has been the one clear voice of reason within this very complicated area, as far as my experiences have gone, and believe you I did a lot of research. As I was hoping my son could also get Merit awards, or other assistance. (FED loans ETC) And it is VERY confusing... That's why they hire compliance officers.
My understanding is
As far as the NCAA is concerned and the count towards the 11.7. In State or Out of State makes no difference. Again you add up what is will cost THAT particular PLAYER to attend that school... (formula given above) and get a percentage of whatever the scholarship AWARD value is and that is the allotment to the NCAA regulation of 11.7 Scholarships.
Coaches can make an offer in dollar amount or a percentage. However if FEES or COST to attend the college do go up... A percentage offer protects the player while a dollar amount could help the coach in his allocation to the 11.7.
So all of this makes a lot of difference to the AD and coach and their budgets.
For example...
Player A is IN-state and Cost for in state are $20,000 and he is given a $10000 award. (assume fees do not go up) That counts as .50 toward the 11.7 and uses up $10,000 in budget.
Player B is out of state and cost for him is $40,000 He is given a 50% award and it also counts .50 to the 11.7 but the cost to the budget is $20000. Because no state funding is used, and the extra 10K has to come from the scholarship funds. (Thus it is much cheaper to the Athletic department to give the same scholarship to IN-State players than Out of State Players)
But then it really gets confusing as then the FEDs and other agencies that provide other scholarships and aid, get into the act.
An EFC (est family contribution is calculated) And then your baseball scholarship is added to that to see what these agencies believe to be any additional NEED. So any FED loans or other assistance based on NEED will go down the higher the baseball award goes up.
For instance say tuition is 40K and your EFC is considered 15K. (all based on your income) And then you get 50% baseball scholarship. Well most of the FED and AID agnecies then look at your need as only 5K, 40K-15K-20K = 5K and you will probably only get loans up to that amount.
If however the same is true above but the scholarship award is .25 or 10K the agencies will see you as 40-15-10=15k AND YOU might GET MORE NEED ASSISTANCE, to cover the 15K of need, perhaps a grant.
Vice versa... if the scholarship increases then the need goes down... and overall cost to the family will stay close to the EFC. (unless baseball scholarship exceeds that coverage)
Stanford is the master of this as they require all recruites to first Apply for admission and then apply for finanicial Aid, provide 1040s, fill up an FAFSA worksheet and turn it into them.
They then figure out how they can award you the most $$$ by using the least amount of BASEBALL Budget. (since they are private in CA, IN-State or Out of state doesn't matter)
They get all the $$$ they can from OTHER AGENCIES, before using thier own budget.
My one word of ADVICE is to talk in depth with the schools financial aid office.
Posts: 481 | Location: San Diego, CA | Registered: September 12, 2003
This is the way I tried to explain it earlier. The $$ money figures are just examples. You should be able to obtain a similar breakdown from the coach.
So if I'm the head coach it will cost me less (percentage wise) to sign in state kids from a tuition stand point. And in most cases to sign out of state kids you have to give them at least a good chunk of the out of state tuition, depending on need/talent of course.
Posts: 462 | Location: Indiana | Registered: January 31, 2006
Although the in-state or out of state uses the allotted sholarships equally, it does impact the money (or, probably more accurately, expected revenue) the uni receives. A program's relationship with the administration is crucial.
This is another reason we see so many state institutions recruiting so few out-of-state players. One coach said, "if I'm recruiting out of state, he better be a stud or I've got problems I don't need with the administration."
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." --- Terry Pratchett
having stumbled upon an always interesting thread that always tends to confuse newcomers, I'll add 2 cents
full rides ARE real
fungo and merc have a clear grasp of the situation - sdbb is not far behind - - it was his coach who laid it out for me till I got it.
one "full tuition" is just what it says - to the program's acounting & NCAA compliance it's $$ amount is not changed by the player's home address - - BUT - - it's "value" will be greater to an out of state player
ex: one "full tuition" split 50/50 between an "instate" & "out of state" = "1 tuition used" viewed by the NCAA & compliance, tho it has different values to each player - - the other portions (room, board, books, fees) are straight $$ amounts having the same value to anyone (tho room, board, etc, dollars can be allocated/used for player tuition(s) as well)
in "Hope Scholly" states, a program can fund some "full tuitions" for "Hope qualifiers" with a bit of the program's book money $$
tho some schools may want a certain % of recruits be "in-state", it's not because it's expensive to the program - - they actually make good $$ on out of state kids - - the remainder of what the "out of state" kid owes the school will be far greater $ wise than the "in state" kid - - & thats money the school never sees if the "out of state" guy goes elsewhere.
regarding questions for the coach?
I never thought to ask, but was fortunate that the school my son attends trys to offer athletes the max standards allowable by the NCAA
soo - ask about their policies on 5th yr financial aid for athletes w/eligebilty expired - - many schools do NOT give it, & those that do have varying guidlines/requirements -
avoid surprises
hope that helps
Posts: 3625 | Location: NE Ohio | Registered: December 27, 2002
Orlando, I have never understood why it COST more to educate an out-of-state student than an in-state student. I do understand the institutions CHARGES more, but it seems to me the cost would be the same. It ain’t like they gotta send a big yellow bus across the state line to pick up the students. Fungo
Posts: 4961 | Location: Spring Creek (Jackson),Tennessee | Registered: December 26, 2002
