quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
INF it's a pitcher thing you might not understand.

I don't get that.

Why bring up CofC, that program has consistantly been a winning program, attended NCAA playoffs on a regular basis, under former coach and the new coach is a disciple of Ray Tanner and did well last year.

Infielddad has it right, the object is, that if you wish to play against the best it doesn't always have to be playing against a brand name school or being a a D1. Your summer experience is sooo important in that process, and you have to perform so that the coaching staff will send you off to a good league. If you don't perform in season, you don't get those opportunities, no matter where you go. That's where you are seriously considered for draft potential.

This has nothing to do with where you go to school, it's what you make of where you go,my son went to a place that was in the middle of nowhere, but with an intense baseball program, that worked in his favor. He had a great social life. Anywhere a player goes that is different than where he is from, can pose a problem, if one goes to the beach instead of class, that player most likely would find any reason not to go to class.

As far as canadians getting blind sighted, perhaps they need to do their homework just like everyone else, get in front of coaches so they are able to be fully evaluated, so that they don't show up and can't get the job done. Gee, I always got the impression from you BHD, that they were much better than those in the US. JMO.

quote:

Why bring up CofC, that program has consistently been a winning program, attended NCAA playoffs on a regular basis, under former coach and the new coach is a disciple of Ray Tanner and did well last year.

I love C of C. My son said he would have loved to go there after seeing all the colleges he played against. I actually asked him last year where he would have gone after playing at some great schools. C of C was his 1st choice and USC was his second.
TPM I can see you still can't read. I said the comment was funny referring to TOO much Charleston and too little college.
Now that 3 of the group have turned this personal as usual I will just resist further comment.

infielddad,
You bring up good points about how we do not know what is discussed between players and coaches.

A good example would be Ray Tanner, who routinely has many more walk ons that one might consider desirable, however, my understanding is that he gets lots of kids and parents calling especially from alumni, offers them walk on opportunities but players and their folks know it's most likely a long shot. You might find this very prevelant among schools where generations of families attended the school, the player has no intention of going anywhere else, but only wants a chance to try out. If the coach is upfront in his intentions, no problem. Years ago the coach could give books, or small scholarships, and the kids would be happy to sit the bench, he can't do that anymore, but why not give them a chance to try out? The NCAA allows all teams to hold open tryouts, and no fall roster limit, perhaps still a lot for that reason.
I know that Polk did this, and very upset that now he had to turn players away who normally might have a chance to just practice with the team. You might find this is one of the reasons why SEC rosters are so large, lots of these schools include generations of familes that intended, and for many families, there is no where else you will go, but where your mama, papa, sisters, brothers, uncles, aunts and grandma and grandpa went. Not all coaches subscribe to that philosophy, regardless of alumni families.

I don't know if it is like that on the west coast.

Maybe I just didn't get your point, but what did or does it matter anyway, bringing up Charleston?

I happen to like charleston very much and Myrtle Beach, I can see why your son loved it there, but it really seems to be not irrevalent to the discussion.

You do have a fixation on not sitting out, yet you support the D1 program like no other can compare. In one sentence it's the only way to go, in others it's let the buyer beware.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:
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quote:

Originally posted by infielddad: If the player truly is cut, he can transfer and play at any school other than a DI. There are a wealth of options in CA. Some of the DII's are certainly competitive with the program involved in this topic.

Actually not the case this year...

...have talked to some of the CA DII coaching staffs...due to budget cuts the UC's and the CA states are NOT accepting mid year transfers...

This leaves only a couple DII's and the potentially expensive NAIA's...or out of state.


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O'44, thanks for that update.
It would also leave JC's and DIII's. Many of those options might be considerably less expensive than the school in question.

IFD...you are very good!...right you are!..I had meant to say "a couple DIII's"...and a good reminder about the JC's...


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Regarding cutting scholarship players mid year (D1):

A scholarship player can be cut mid-year in the sense that he is no longer welcome at practice, but his scholarship remains intact until the end of the academic year. Also, his name remains on the 35 man roster.

A program can reduce athletic aid for fraud, disciplinary problems (as judged by the main university, not the athletic department), becoming academically ineligible, or for voluntarily leaving the program. (15.3.4.2) That aid could, in principle, be redistributed to other players in the following term. (15.5.3.2.3) If the aid is terminated in the fall, the player is no longer a counter in the aubsequent spring semester, and would not need to be included in the 35 man roster (17.2.8.3 and 15.5.1)

So, as I see it, if a coach decides in the fall that a scholarship player won't be able to contribute, he has incentive to run the player off. It gives him an extra spot on the 35 man roster, and gives him some flexibility in scholarships for other players. For example, the coach could increase the scholarship for a player in the spring term with the understanding that the player would have a corresponding decrease in the subsequent year.

Now, about the program mentioned in the original post. I know nothing about the fall roster. And I only know the coach by reputation. He's a straight arrow with repect to recruiting. Lots of programs bend the rules by sending letters and emails to potential players which are ostensibly about camps, but which are actually clear recruiting. The program in question follows the rules strictly. So I suppose that the players involved have all been informed of and are aware of their odds.

Secondly, that college offers substantial discounts to any student who attended a Catholic high school, a discount for SAT scores above 1200 and even more for scores above 1350 (IIRC). I don't remember the exact amounts, but it is tens of thousands of dollars. So for the right student, the cost of attendence can be less than a UC or CSU school. If he hopes that he may be good enough to play baseball at a mid-level D1, why not give it a whirl? I think it is entirely plausible that there are players on the fall roster who intend to stay in that college, whether they make the team or not.

Thanks 3FG, makes a lot os sense to what you say. And thanks for the rule.
I am assuming that is why we can find large fall rosters at many schools where state paid tuition is available, the student walks on to try out, doesn't make the team but still has intentions to remain at the school.
While reading rosters is helpful, it doesn't always tell the story between the differences in a recruited walk on or a walk on for try out only.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:

A program can reduce athletic aid ...or for voluntarily leaving the program. (15.3.4.2) That aid could, in principle, be redistributed to other players in the following term. (15.5.3.2.3) If the aid is terminated in the fall, the player is no longer a counter in the aubsequent spring semester, and would not need to be included in the 35 man roster (17.2.8.3 and 15.5.1)

Which brings up the age old, but rarely talked about practice of coaches running players off. If you are a scholarshipped player and the coach wants his scholarship back, the fastest way to accomplish that is to get the student to leave school. It does happen. Many times the job is left up to the strength and conditioning coach, who lets the player know, that if he stays, he's going to brutalize him in the workouts.

Not saying it happens at all schools or even a majority of schools, but it does happen. The worst violators are usually the same programs that you see over recruiting.

quote:

Which brings up the age old, but rarely talked about practice of coaches running players off. If you are a scholarshipped player and the coach wants his scholarship back, the fastest way to accomplish that is to get the student to leave school. It does happen. Many times the job is left up to the strength and conditioning coach, who lets the player know, that if he stays, he's going to brutalize him in the workouts.

Not saying it happens at all schools or even a majority of schools, but it does happen. The worst violators are usually the same programs that you see over recruiting.

Not saying this does not happen, but I have never heard of any cases of this. I would think that this would become big news if it happened. What would stop the abused person from reporting this type activity? The media would have a field day with it. It actually sounds like something that could end up going to court. That sounds like threatening torture!

While college athletics might have its faults, I hope no one has stooped to this level. I would think if this practice got out it would be very counter productive for recruiting.

There is another CA D1 with a Fall 2009 D1 roster that has 50 names on it. I am not familiar with all the players but there are definitely some high profile names and baseball legacies on the list. I assume they also have to get to 35 by spring, looks like there will be some very stiff competition.

quote:

Originally posted by cheapseats:
There is another CA D1 with a Fall 2009 D1 roster that has 50 names on it. I am not familiar with all the players but there are definitely some high profile names and baseball legacies on the list. I assume they also have to get to 35 by spring, looks like there will be some very stiff competition.

Again...I would suggest that this is a trend...and I have to be wondering, particuarly in CA, with the poor economy and huge budget squeeze hitting the school incredibly hard both the state and the privates, if schools are going to continue fully funding the baseball programs. Increased (wide open) competition would be one way to to squeeze out/in any un disovered/underappreciated/cast off talent.

44
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quote:

Originally posted by cheapseats:
There is another CA D1 with a Fall 2009 D1 roster that has 50 names on it. I am not familiar with all the players but there are definitely some high profile names and baseball legacies on the list. I assume they also have to get to 35 by spring, looks like there will be some very stiff competition.

Sons old school had 55 names on their roster and over 100 at the start of their fall practices!



You can make this real simple by just looking at that and where their incoming recruits come from.

On the other hand, son's current school has only 30 on the roster, down 4 from last year. There are still some schools out there that are not over-recruiting.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
... but I have never heard of any cases of this.

I personally know a strength and conditioning coach who is tasked with this job. Very common in football when they realize a scholarshipped player won't pan out, but he has run off baseball players also.

The reason I started this thread was just to help educate parents of younger players that this does occur, whether these players were invited, or just showed up to try to walk on. It was not my intention to bash a well respected college.

There has been so much great input that will really help the parents of future college players. One thing that sticks out in my mind from all the posts is there is much more to college baseball than just D1! There are so many other levels that might be a better experience for your son that you should be open-minded and explore all options.

This year seems like a "perfect storm" for college admissions due to severe budget cuts in the UC/CSU system. Add to that the severe cuts @ the junior college level in CA and some kids may have a really tough time finding some place to play this year. At DeAnza community college in Cupertino CA they have over 8,000 students that can't get classes according to the local newspaper. If a player decides to transfer to a JC can the coach help him get classes?

Players may need to research more schools and be more open to out of state schools and programs of all levels.

Not to open another can of worms but I wonder if all the walk-ons in CA schools could partially be a result of the explosion of travel teams the last few years with more players continuing to play baseball past LL. My son is only 19 but when he was 13 there were NO travel teams in our county. Now there are many to choose from. I think this is fairly representative of many areas across the country?

Have to remember that in times of recession, lost jobs, college enrollements go up, so you can't assume that high enrollements just include HS grads, but all segments of the population.

quote:

My son is only 19 but when he was 13 there were NO travel teams in our county. Now there are many to choose from. I think this is fairly representative of many areas across the country?

It's a lucrative business.......$$$

This is what the stink is all about.

Stephen F Austin

And this is a D1. Red flag for my boys!!

I think that this has been a great topic, thanks CaBB for starting it, over recruiting has always been a hot topic areound here and will continue to always be.
Basically, with the economy the way it is, with parents not being able to find student loans, losing money on their 401k's, and house values, credit drying up, people need to find ways to help pay for education, and securing a scholarship in any sport is one that they will always seek out. There are reasons why students seek out scholarships, the main one helping to pay for education, or helping them to get into a school they may not otherwise be able to, that will never change. The shift of population to warmer climates also has changed, therefore those schools in those climates (closer to home) is going to feel the brunt of over enrollment, over recruting, etc.

The biggest change I see in college baseball, is players who would otherwise head off to college, now take the money and become professionals. The MLB scholarship plan will become very attractive as an alternative.

I personally am very glad that we have been there and done that.

FWIW, I don't see how schools can not fully fund, as they have to pay more out for scholarships now than before, they have to continue to compete for players and you can't do that with offering them nothing. What you might see is a drop in spring roster sizes, as you can now see in some programs, even at the larger ones. But if that is the case, they drop athletic scholarships, more and more importance will be on grades, for academic money.

quote:

This is what the stink is all about.

Stephen F Austin

And this is a D1. Red flag for my boys!!

workinghard,

Without knowing why there are 60 players out there in the fall, how do we know there is anything wrong. Now if someone actually "recruited" all 60 players, I would understand. Looking at the roster it looks like there is room for 9 of the 60. I find it hard to believe that all 60 of those kids were sold a bill of goods.

Of the 26 that are listed on their roster, it includes 7 new "recruited" JC transfers and 6 new freshman "recruits". All 13 "recruits" are listed on their actual roster.

I'm not sure why they have 60 players out there, but it doesn't mean they are doing anything wrong. Until they start cutting their recruits, I'm not sure if this is anything to be alalmed about. It could very well mean that there are some kids who made a bad decision though. Truth is you could have a hundred kids trying out in the fall and it doesn't necessarily mean there is any wrongdoing.

Looks to me like there might be room for 9 non recruited players to make a Div I roster. Maybe most of those players didn't really expect to make the roster and have planned accordingly.

My point is, we need more information to determine if anything is wrong in this case and other cases. I do know of good players who have been recruited by schools mentioned here as over recruiting schools. At least in some of those cases, we have known that the player knew exactly what was going on and willing to live with it. They were set up (by the original college) to attend Juco that same year if things didn't work out. The lure to play at the highest level is strong for talented players. Many times they do end up transfering to a Juco and things still end up working out in the end.

The thing that stinks is when a kid was either uninformed or unhappy or a scholarship player is cut and they can't transfer to another DI school without sitting out a year. They did nothing wrong! I know it has been that way in Football and Basketball before it happened in baseball, but both Football and basketball are full scholsrship sports where baseball, is partial, now at least 25%. We are not talking about equal situations.

These rules might have been made for good reasons, but IMO they are bad rules and need to be adjusted.