Folks,

Just wanted to generate some conversation on "How Much Is Enough".....How much time should these young men be spending to elevate their game to the next level? I am asking specifically about High School age players that want to play in college.

I want to hear from everyone or anyone that has an opinion about this subject....I believe the answers given will help the current HS players and their parents get a gauge or handle on what they are or are not doing.

I know what I believe but would really like to hear from a bunch of folks so we can help others get to their destination.....so with that being said....let er rip.

O42

If everyone replies....I would expect you'll get anything from A to Z on this topic. In my case, boy is pretty determined to no be out worked by anyone as talent will only take you so far. Let's start with where we are right now, the off season. He is in the gym 5 to 6 days week, stopped throwing after Jupiter WWBA World Championships in late October and won't resume til next week, January.

January and February will continue to be in the gym 5 to 6 days a week til March 1, when his high school season official starts. During this time he'll start throwing every other day in January and as we build to March 1, will stretch it out to full long toss and eventually throwing every day.

March thru May, high school season begins with practice everyday but Sundays, which he uses as a work out day for himself, stays in the gym 3 days a week in season to maintain strength during season.

Once high school season ends he usually has apprx. 2 to 3 week down time til he leaves for the summer and goes to his new home for the summer playing for his summer team in another state. While he's gone for the summer we arrange gym deal so he's still in gym 2 to 3 days a week, summer team goes every day over the summer months of June and July and the first week of August except 1 day a week they all have off to rest and relax.

Once he comes back home from Summer program, he'll typically take some down time anywhere from 2 to 3 weeks w/ that first week doing nothing with baseball and then slowly starts throwing again and swinging again to ease himself back in to preparing for fall baseball. The fall is not nearly as intense for him. The schedule for the fall typically is games only on the weekends with the work week keeping his grades up but he'll still manage to get to the gym 3 to 4 days a week. The fall season ends for him each year down in Florida at the Jupiter WWBA World Championships.

This is a brief breakdown of his year for the last 2-3 years. He started this intesity I'd say following or right around his Freshman year in high school, but has maintained this kind of work ethic since the start of his summer baseball between Freshman and Sophomore year of high school. The one thing you'll notice is I did not talk much about his hitting. Well, that's pretty much because w/ exception of a few weeks here or there, he continues to hit year round.

Best of luck to every one for this upcoming high school season.

I don't think the replies will be all that varied. Most of the kids and parents who post on HSBBW are very baseball involved and spend the majority of their pastime involved in baseball related activities.

My own son in HS played year round. Of course in KY, there's no baseball in November until tryouts in February. His HS had conditioning during those off months though and he played recreational basketball to help keep in shape. The winter months held pitching with a coach for a couple of years as well. Compared to many players though, we didn't do the instructional route nearly as much as some.

So, there was regular HS season, the summer season, and the fall season. Everyone bringing its own enjoyment and flavor.

O42,
Great question and some good replies. Lafmom suggest the players’ commitment would be about the same and I wouldn’t disagree with her IF all had the same goals and the same talents. She does suggest that most parents here on the HSBBW have son’s that are equally involved but that may or may not be the case. For sake of discussion I’ll take a different position and say that no two players are the same and each probably has different goals. I remember my youngest son expressing his lofty goals of playing SEC baseball during his early high school years. The first thing I had to do was remove the rose colored glasses, evaluate my son’s talent, determine if his goals were obtainable and then together we worked out a plan that included a great summer team, training, instructions, exposure and mini goals along the way to make sure “we” were on track and not chasing some smoke dream. We also agreed that the plan was not etched in stone and was easily changed. He even understood that if he didn’t want to do any of it that was fine with me. It was his call.
As a parent I felt it was my responsibility to help him understand that a goal with out a plan is a dream. I also stressed that he needed to plan his work and work his plan. I would post these words of wisdom where he could see them. I didn’t push ---- I just “reminded” him of HIS goals. I remember setting down with my son and explaining there were players with less talent that were working harder than he was and would pass him if he became complacent. We talked a lot during this time about where he was and where he wanted to be. I validated his talent with compliments but at the same time I frequently critiqued his approach to “success”. His routine became pretty much year round except during football season. I think we worked out a plan during the off-season that included about 3 days a week with some type of baseball related workout. As the junior year approached he pretty much stayed in “baseball shape” year round because he participated in some winter camps and some local showcases. We actually looked for some “downtime” for the throwing arm so it could recover. While this seemed like a total commitment it only came down to about 4-5 hours a week of physical involvement. Spring and summer times were dictated by the summer team and high school schedule. I did devise a “recovery schedule” during the in-season for when he pitched to prevent injury and ensure proper recovery. If you are going to “go for it” you need to have a good understanding of what “IT” is and what “GO” means.
Fungo

Orioles42, the answer lies within the desire of the player. All you can do is practice and get better every day. It takes time and hard work and you need to push yourself to meet goals.

We are getting a good start here and many good posts so far.

Fungo: "A goal without a plan is a dream", you are a wise man my friend, and I would have expected nothing less from you after all of these years reading your posts'

I know it takes many hours of work, I have been there with my son and he did o.k. for himself. I think some times we tend to "work" on the facets of the game that the player is strong at because that may certainly be easier, but while we are doing that we neglect the areas of the game that the player is weak at. I believe that is a pitfall that should be "payed attention" too. The areas of the game where we are weak......extra time should be spent there!

O42

quote:

Originally posted by orioles42:
We are getting a good start here and many good posts so far.

Fungo: "A goal without a plan is a dream", you are a wise man my friend, and I would have expected nothing less from you after all of these years reading your posts'

I agree - good thoughts Fungo!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by orioles42:
Folks,

Just wanted to generate some conversation on "How Much Is Enough".....How much time should these young men be spending to elevate their game to the next level? I am asking specifically about High School age players that want to play in college.



Good idea for a post.

I know you were asking about how much time should be placed upon elevating ones game to reach the college level, but don't forget the time and effort that one puts into the classroom is very important as well, and should not be overlooked.

quote:

Just wanted to generate some conversation on "How Much Is Enough".....How much time should these young men be spending to elevate their game to the next level?

Orioles...long time no see! Welcome back.

Very good question. I think it is difficult to tell anyone else what they should do to reach their goal and what is "enough". Goals are personal choices...as is the determination of what is enough to attain that goal. We all know talents aren't always equal, the amount of work put in to achieve goals isn't always equal, and sometimes available "resources" to achieve the goal are not always equal.

In my son's case, I realized after being introduced to the HSBB site and the multitude of posts and experiences....WOW...he didn't do NEARLY the amount of "stuff" so many other poster's sons did. No major showcases (never even HEARD of Perfect Game, etc. until signing onto this site), no highly competitive summer team (American Legion all the way here), or high profile fall college scout team either. Sometimes I truly wonder HOW did he ever attain his goal without the benefit of all these experiences and am amazed that he did "enough".

I will tell you that he worked hard and consistently on his personal game and talents....but after reading many other experiences on this site....it's obvious to us he was outworked by many on this site! From what WE had witnessed of other athletes in our area...we felt he was doing ALOT! He dwindled down to one sport by his junior year of high school, when he committed year round to baseball. So what did he actually do to achieve his goal? Played high school ball, lifted and worked with a private instructor thru out the entire year. The MAJOR thing he always worked on were his WEAKNESSES. I would have just assumed people would know to work on their weaknesses...but that obviously isn't the case. After HS ball was American Legion, which took him thru the summer. Finally by his junior year we did find him a fall ball team to play on (not very high profile), before that team tho...it was back to the gym and his instructor. Some would say this isn't "enough".

There just weren't the opportunities available to him in our geographic area, that many others have been able to avail themselves of (ie, good travel and fall ball teams). He also didn't have the luxury of having "savvy" parents to direct him and research where he needed to direct his attentions and efforts (ie, showcases). We were pretty naive. I have mentioned this before, I didn't even find the HSBB site until a week AFTER he signed his NLI. WOW...what info and resources we missed out on....we would have had MORE than enough. But, everything did work out the way he had planned, hoped and worked for. And he obviously did "enough".

Since he went to college and started playing collegiate ball...it's a whole different enchilada! We "thought" he worked out hard before.....WOW....what he does NOW makes what he did before look like nothing! It's like night and day. I'm sure it is because he has more competitive people around him, and he has more resources available to him. He realizes now, that getting to the "next level" isn't always based just on talent alone...it takes more...and he's working hard to help assure his next goal is attainable. He is more "savvy" as a college senior, than his parents EVER were when it comes to this topic. He definetly believes his definition of "enough" is NOT the same as it was in high school.

Telling someone what they should do, and what is "enough" to achieve their goal of playing collegiate ball is not easy because one doesn't know the resources available to them. And that could be expanded to include financial resources as well.

Good topic Orioles!

TPM,

Your point is well taken and at least from my standpoint is a very important point. I have always told players this:

"If you don't get it done in the classroom, you will never get a chance to get it done between the white lines"

I have seen it all to often for players that had tremendous ability but could not get over the hump academically and never reached their potential.

LUVBB: Missed you guys sorry for staying away but CD told me I could have some time off...

O42

Luvbb --- that is a very good post and thanks for sharing.
I'd like to point out a couple of things you say that sound contradictory on the surface but really explains why “enough” can vary from player to player and goal to goal.

quote:

WOW...he didn't do NEARLY the amount of "stuff" so many other poster's sons did.

Here your post demonstrates that a talented player like your son requires less “stuff” to achieve a certain goal or level. However (as you later point out) there will come a point in his career when he has to put forth more and more effort because the challenges increase as his goals get higher. Your son sounds very savvy and we know who he got that from.

quote:

He realizes now, that getting to the "next level" isn't always based just on talent alone...it takes more...and he's working hard to help assure his next goal is attainable.

quote:

quote:
WOW...he didn't do NEARLY the amount of "stuff" so many other poster's sons did.


Here your post demonstrates that a talented player like your son requires less “stuff” to achieve a certain goal or level.

Fungo, when I think back on my son's recruitment experience I definetly feel he was the beneficiary of talent AND luck. Albeit, I believe to a certain extent you MAKE your luck. He was "lucky" that the few opportunities he had to make an impression on a scout/coach....he was able to draw upon his talent AND his hard work to perform up to his abilities. It just all came together for him at the right times...and I attribute that to both physical and mental fortitude, and a bit of luck .

I guess my advice on what is "enough" would be this:
Work as hard as you can on your game/talents, concentrating on your weaknesses (it takes you out of your comfort zone which strengthens your mental game, and also makes you a more well-rounded athlete). Be proactive in contacting schools that you are interested in. Realize that you maximize your chances and increase your odds the more opportunities you have to showcase your abilities. The less opportunities you have, the more pressure you will be under to perform to the level you want to present to the coach. Akin to betting it all on one hand. Each individual has to decide what "odds" they are comfortable with in order to hit their jackpot...their goal...that is the definition of what is "enough"....IMO .

luvbb - your story is similar to ours and I agree about luck being involved. We knew nothing about showcasing or any of the other stuff routinely talked about here on the hsbbweb. Most of my son's young life was spent playing the game (as much as possible up here in the North) and it never occurred to us to train for strength or speed. He did not get into serious weight lifting until later in his high school career. He added speed training in his senior year of high school. I recently posted the following in the summer teams forum about my son's experiences with American Legion baseball. It kind of illustrates the luck factor involved:

I have mostly good things to say about legion baseball as my son played two seasons for them. The only negative I have seen and already mentioned in this thread is maybe for older players who still play legion ball. The negative part (if it even is) being they may be facing lesser competition i.e., younger players. For the young players however, the experience is a great one.

The first team my son played on was a 17u team. He was a 15 year old (turn 16 in July) during the summer heading into his junior year. Our big trip of the year was heading to Athens Ohio. Legion put on a big tournament at Ohio University and surrounding high schools. We played a superior team to us from Morgantown, Wva. They hit many long homeruns and struck most of our guys out and run-ruled us. My son had two nice hits and after the game we found out that a half dozen of their starters were from U WVa. I was thrilled when I found that out as I felt my son had competed nicely against them. He played well across that tournament against other teams who also had college players competing. I guess what I am saying is legion provides nice opportunities for younger players to play up.

Over that winter, he got offers to play for other travel teams and was tempted to take them. I knew the legion coach wanted him back. When my son asked my advice I first told him I would support any decision he made but... I told him there is something about loyalty or whatever you want to call it. I told him he was thrilled when he got to play up the year before with some older guys and now the coach needed him to fill the same role - leadership. I think he understood me on some level and chose to comeback another year to the legion team but I think deep down he wondered if he was passing up better opportunities.

Th following spring he played in the Ohio high school state championship for big schools. He put everything he had into winning that game and they came up short 6-2. That was on a Friday in early June and legion baseball started their season the very next day on Saturday. He was in no mood to begin playing so soon but I kind of hard-coaxed him into it. For the first month of that legion season, my son played like a zombie and you could tell his heart was not in it. He fielded poorly and did not hit. I had to eventually call him out but he couldn't get over the feeling we were playing down. I told him maybe the reason the team was playing down was because he was playing down! I think that message got though to him but it still took something else to turn things around that summer.

We headed back to Athens for the annual legion tournament and the first few games my son did not play well. We had the conversation I spoke of above and we found out we were playing the #1 ranked legion team in Ohio that night from Marysville. They had several OU college students on their team and when we arrived at the ballpark you could tell they were way bigger than us and clearly did not respect us. For the first time that summer, I noticed my son had an extra bounce in his step.

Our coach employed an age old trick in that game and he pitched our youngest and softest-thrower on the team in hopes that would mess up their timing. He gave up a few long homeruns but our defense started to play well for him and we found ourselves down 9-6 late in the game. We then got the bases loaded and my son came to the plate and they brought in their closer from OU. He hit a double and cleared the bases. I knew his summer of funk was over at that point and he played outstanding the rest of the year. We ended up losing that game but the coach from the other team said we turned their heads.

The following is not legion but ends the story.

Later that summer, the high school coach recalled all his players from the surrounding travel and legion teams that had disbursed over the summer and we entered the CABA hig school World Series tournament that is held annually in this area. During one of the games against a team from Chicago (gotwood4sale's son played on the team) a coach happened to stop on his way back from Chicago heading toward his home in Myrtle Beach. He just happened to watch my son's game and my son just happened to have a good game so there is luck involved. He approached my son's high school coach after the game and made inquiries. He basically said he liked my son's game but felt he might be a little too small to play Division 1. He was 5-9 and 147 lbs at the time. My son ended up being the starting ss at that college since half way though his freshman year and now heading into his junior year.

Later that year, as the only returning starter on his high school team, he led them back to the state championship tournament and came up one game shy of the championship. All the hurt and the heartache from the year before had been completely erased and he was now headed off to college in a dream location. Do I think legion ball was good? From a younger player's perspective, it was great. He learned how to compete against older and stronger players and he learned something about leadership. Looking back, I believe neither him nor I would change a thing.

Dan, interesting story. I agree with your assessment of Legion ball...great for younger players, not so much for college-aged kids coming home to play. American Legion is big here in our area. My son started playing legion as a 15 year old like your son. I credit American Legion for my son's recruitment success thru the annual PA American Legion East/West all-star game and the exposure he got thru the different stages of tryouts that were involved from local thru state level.

A great topic. Getting opinions on how much was needed to be done by the player in advance to ascertain an opportunity to play college baseball.

I can go in many directions, but it will lead to the same conclusion.

"Because it is fun"

Thats always been my sons reason to play all sports, it still is he says, but now the fun part also includes possible opportunities to play at a higher level for an extended time frame.

When he was born, I was 30. I was very active playing baseball, softball, flag football, a hoops league, and golf 3-4 times per week. As an ex-jock, I could tell my young one was blessed athletically, as is his younger brother who is age 10 now.

I could have chose the "daddyball" road, and I am happy to say I didn't, nor did I impose my love of all sports, except s****r on my kid. I didn't have to.

I think kids know what they like more than we give them credit for !

My son never played t-ball, but at age 6 played his first season of coach pitch. It was for the 8-9 age group, but they let him play, and "playing up" in age by 2-3 years was born. I did coach the first 3 seasons. He was not only able to compete, but able to excel, and everybody knew it back then.

All but maybe 2 parents throughout the entire youth baseball experience were supportive of his abilities.

He was having fun, and it was normal to him that all his friends were older, and that has helped so far in the social aspect, the maturity aspect, as well as in sports. In never dawned on me to start parading him around the country for baseball when he was younger. He was having too much fun playing baseball, football, basketball and golf.

As far as college sports considerations, I could easily be on a basketball or football forum these days when I recollect the entire trek of his sports thru high school. I am glad it is baseball, but I miss the hoops!! And apparently, so do the kids. Rumor has it many of his current teammates were also All-State basketball kids, and they "work-out" every now and then.

My son played baseball in NEO in a travel league called the CVBA. It consists of maybe 30 cities in about 7 counties in NEO. He played until age 15, and again always 2 years up in age. Humbly, he did well, and several of the kids he played against are Juniors now in some fine college baseball programs.

After his 2nd varsity season(Soph age 16), he got some notice as a HS player leading all high schools north of Columbus in HR's, and made several all-star teams. He realized it was time to expand his competition and joined the 18u Ohio Yankees, a Premier summer team with a well respected coach and hitting instructor. I recall his slight reluctance when driving him to the first workout. He, and one other local kid would be the only 16 year olds to ever be asked to play.

*****By the way, the other 16 year old will bat in the middle of the order for a D1 team as a college freshman.*****

After being at that first workout for 5 minutes, I could see the older teammates adopt him and take him into the fold. It is still so vivid in my memory because it gave me such a positive vibe.

The parents were all great and fun to travel with. I recall the very first game. I hung out in the weeds. There were a few guys standing near me while my son entered the batters box for his first Yankee at bat. Some of the guys started saying "this is that kid who hit all those home runs" and stuff like that. I was nervous, and blurted out to them that he was my son, and I hope he at least makes some solid contact. He doubled to the RCF wall.Phew!!

Anyway, success breeds motivation, and motivation breeds success, all wrapped around FUN. It was a great first season. He got to play at some nice college venues, gain valuable exposure, and led the team in most offensive categories. Many of the opposing pitchers are now college Juniors. The season in 2005 was capped off by winning the NABF regional, 1st team all-tournament, a trip to Mississippi for the NABF world series, and a Yankee victory against the Bayside Yankees(Pedro Alvarez), and he got to compete against Pedro in the HR Derby.

The NABF affiliation and his successes earned him a spot at the 2006 USA Baseball Tournament of Stars in Joplin. He did very well against national competition, many who ended up 1st round picks in the 2007 Draft.

College baseball programs from coast to coast became interested, and many opportunities presented themselves. The next 2 years, he kept producing and advancing and we experienced the college recruiting process to the nth degree, muddled through an injury, and learned lots more about professional baseball. Regarding draft versus college, my conclusion. Don't sell yourself short !!

My year-round jock was 1/2 grade shy of the Deans list in his 1st college semester. He is getting the maturity and academic responsibility part down. The baseball is FUN.

Hope y'all don't mind a Texan posting here. It's interesting to read the various stories.

During my son's freshman and sophomore years, he played for a private school and he had to do all of his training on his own about 9 months out of the year. It was hard to get teammates to work out with him, and he got pretty frustrated. They were content to simply play on their team, while he had aspirations to get to the next level. He had a weekly 2-hour lesson with a former college coach who worked on hitting and fielding with him, and he tried to do long toss and fielding several times a week with his dad.

When he transferred to a large public school last year, things got a lot easier. First off, he was placed in a 90-minute daily baseball class during school, where everyone gets 9 months of good training. Second, all of the sudden he had a slew of talented teammates, almost all of whom aspired to play college ball. (Seven '07 seniors are now playing college ball at some level -- 1 at a D1, 4 at a local D2, and 2 at JUCO's.) So, no more problems finding people to work out with.

At school, my son gets daily work in running, hitting, and fielding. The class trains twice a week on weights. I would say weightlifting is where my son is deficient. He doesn't enjoy it all that much, but really needs it to get stronger. This next week, he will be joining a fitness club and I am hoping that he will go at least twice a week to supplement what is being done at school. He has two teammates who go 4-5 times a week, so he'll have no problem finding a lifting partner.

At the D1 where he has committed to, one of the coaches told us they have problems keeping their players from lifting too much. He said many go to the weightroom daily and the coaches get worried about injuries. I think my son will be in for a rude awakening next year when he sees what he is up against!

Infield08, You're welcome here anytime. I do think you bring up something that is true in this area as well. The private schools for the most part do not have the organized conditioning/training that the public schools have. That doesn't mean that they're not as strong of a program, but the availability is different.

My son's HS had regular season with tryout in KY start somewhere in early Feb. Then regular season which can go until the middle of June if you were to make it all the way in the state tourney - otherwise your season will end around the end of May.

Summer ball teams consist of HS teams vs travel teams. There can be quite a controversy over what route, just as in other areas I suppose. Also, the KHSAA has made some changes which makes it more difficult for HS teams to stay together.

Then fall ball. Here in the Lexington area, schools do a combination of things - again there are changes with KHSAA that have changed the way that can be done. That season typically lasts until in October. My son's HS traditionally has flag football in November which is great! It's something that allows the boys to have some bonding time outside of baseball while getting some exercise.

Then conditioning starts for returners (players playing before that plan on trying out again as well as kids planning on trying out for the first time). This is done on the school campus. My son's class attended a program with a physical therapist two mornings a week that was baseball specific type of exercises and training. This was something that was unique to their school and the players paid for out of their own pockets of course.

I think something that is very different in my area when reading some of the posts here and knowing what I know from HSBBW is the showcasing experience. Here, no one did these higher profile showcases when son was in HS - perhaps it's changed a bit now? Son graduated in '05. I think the efforts that some players put forth back then was fairly foreign to most here. Emphasis was just much more local.

I personally lived and breathed baseball for 4 years in high school. Being a one sport guy it was a little easier. As a pitcher for arm strength you can never get enough long toss and conditioning. As a hitter, you can never have to fast of hands. Getting live BP as much as possible. Bat drills when BP isnt available.

How much is enough? It is hard to say. You have to put in so much work and you have to love to put in the work.

High school ball in the spring, a competitive summer travel schedule, off season workouts/conditioning(3 months of Ohio weather) & if you are a pitcher 6 weeks no throwing was my schedule