OK, someone explain to me what this actually means.

I was talking to a friend whose son just finished a successful season pitching at the AA level. At one point in the season they were trying to teach him to "pitch to contact." I've heard the phrase before, but never had it explained to me.

So I asked him: OK, what does it mean? He tried, but soon admitted: Can't really explain it, don't really know, doesn't seem like anyone really can explain it.

So I thought I would put it out there: What does "Pitch to Contact" actually mean?

Does it mean let the other team put the ball in play, and not try to strike everybody out? How exactly do you do that? By not always trying for corners?

My suspicion is that this has become a vogue buzz phrase that commentators and others like to say because it sounds smart.

That's my operating theory until someone explains it in a way a I can understand.

quote:

Does it mean let the other team put the ball in play, and not try to strike everybody out? How exactly do you do that? By not always trying for corners?

Good discussion, Rob. That's exactly what it means. But I tend only to hear it on TV from commentators who weren't pitchers back in the day. I know strikeouts are fascist :-) And there are certainly situations where as a pitcher you're really looking for a ground ball. But I never actually thought, "OK, now I'm going to pitch to contact" in college or pro ball; I just went after everybody with a game plan and the best stuff I had that day.

It means "stop nibbling and flood the strike zone." Usually, it is said to someone who is getting into bad counts 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 3-1.

I would much rather a pitcher give up an 0-0 base hit than a 6 pitch walk. Not only does it keep his pitch count down, but it also keeps his defense awake and in the game.

I agree with both and honestly not a huge fan of the phrase. I think it's just one of the new popular phrases that is going around. I don't like it because I just get the impression of a kid hearing it and throwing too many down the middle.

1-2 count pitcher throws a waste pitch. 2-2 count pitcher now tries to be too fine and misses off the plate. Over the course of an outing this drives up the pitch count.

1-2 go after the hitter with a pitch for a strike vs a pitch to try and get him to chase.

Many times in a fastball count with a pitcher up in the count they waste a pitch. In these situations pitching to contact would mean throwing a change up for a strike which will either get you contact hopefully you can field or a K much earlier in the process.

Alot of these HS pitchers drafted are used to striking out alot of hitters. Up in the count they waste pitches trying to get hitters to chase. HS hitters will chase way more often than MIL and ML hitters. The strike zone at the HS level is much larger and way more inconsistent. They want to teach these pitchers that a ground ball in 1 to 4 pitches is way better than a strike out in 5 or 6 pitches.

In HS when you have a dominant arm you want the K's. The defense is not nearly as good as it is at the higher levels. Many times you drop off significantly on the hill when that dominant arm leaves the game. At the pro level you want to teach the pitchers how to get guys out by making them make contact on pitches they are not looking for. Driving down the pitch count and teaching them to "pitch to contact" not trying to be so fine and hence getting behind in counts which leads them to having to throw predictable pitches to tremendous hitters.

Pitching to contact... I never cared for that phrase either. If a pitcher has good stuff and good command that day, I don't want him pitching to contact, I would want him to dominate. Pitch counts get high when he gets wild. I've also never liked the term "waste pitch". The most dominating thing a pitcher can do is throw three pitches for a strike out.

That said I think there are times where a pitcher should think about pitching to contact. Only difference is, I think the time to do this is on 2-0 3-1 counts (Hitter counts). Mike Boddiker made millions throwing what he called "BP Fastballs" with a little sink in 2-0/3-1 counts. Get the ground ball and escape.

A lot depends on what type of pitcher is throwing. Some need to pitch to contact more than others. That's because they don't have a true knockout pitch. But when a pitcher has 2 strikes on a hitter he is one pitch away from contact or a strikeout. I'll take the strikeout in that case, everytime.

Pitch counts are a concern, but I'd rather my pitcher put up zeros for 5 innings than worry about pitch count. Besides if you name the best pitchers in any era, at any level, you will find some guys with high strikeout totals. That doesn't mean that nobody can do it the other way, but the best stuff usually ends up missing a lot of bats. I do agree that sometimes pitchers get caught up in nibbling too much.

Just my opinion, it's not the gospel!

Pitching to contact is another way of saying don't be afraid to throw strikes and go right after the hitter. When you pitch to contact though, you're not just throwing the ball down the pipe, you're looking for low strikes down the middle of the plate to try and induce groundballs. The purpose is to get quick easy outs, keep the pitch count low, and to keep the defense involved in the game and on its toes. A lot of times when a pitcher uses this approach they will be ahead in the count more often than not and when they get batters to 2 strikes they will use their strike out pitch.

The phrase is becoming abused. If you put it in the wrong context to some kids, they may start serving it up rather than risk a walk.

I asked my kid (HS) not long ago what he thought about 'pitch to contact'. He said that even on days when he can't hit his spots, can't throw his offspeed stuff well or feels he's just not getting the 'call', he won't throw something he knows may likely get ripped, unless it's 3-0.....

Pitching is somewhat about assuming and transferring 'risk' - walk, hit, run v. out. Instead he just adjusts his strategy to the situation. If no one is on, then walk may be OK. That's pitcher risk - his ER if runner scores. He might run some 2-seams down on the next batter looking for the DP. Maybe a changeup to induce a pop fly to stop the risp. With runners on, that's shared risk with the rest of the defense.

Otherwise, I believe the pitcher is out there to shoot for Ks unless opponent runs are on the line. From there, 'pitching to contact' is mostly about the best pitches for that situation for the team to best manage the risks.

I've always been perplexed by the balance between strikeouts and pitch counts. Obviously, the high strikeout pitchers on balance have a higher pitch count. Pitch-count rules favor "contact pitchers" but I'm guessing the scouts are not impressed.

SP_son and I were watching an interview once with Greg Maddux where he said that the perfect inning was 3 pitches, and 3 easy ground balls (back to the mound ideally). SP_son really took that to heart.

From that, he decided that his goal would be to get hitters out in 3 pitches or less. He (we) have viewed "pitching to contact" to mean getting the hitter to have to hit your pitch; with the goal being to get it off the end of the bat, or off the handle -- missing the fat part of the bat -- so as to create a ground ball or pop-up out in as few pitches as necessary.

Now ... when SP_son keeps his pitch count down to 10/inning or less, he is pleased; at 10-12 he feels pretty good; at 12+ he sees it as a lesser performance and challenges himself to be more aggresive at attacking hitters and making them hit his pitch the next time out.

As to Bum's point ... No, the scouts don't seem to be impressed by this. Recently, he threw a complete game WIN where he struck out the first 2 hitters of the game for his only 2 K's of the game; faced 9 hitters in the first 3 innings; scattered 6 hits, 4 of which were bloops, and allowed the only 2 runs in the 7th (a 5 out inning). He had thrown only 86 pitches. When it was over the feedback we heard was that he doesn't have enough power to win ... which he and his team had just done. We often get the impression that these days K = Pitching ... even if you get lit up between the K's.

all the college pitching coaches im hearing at clinics and reading are using this phrase. shoot for 3 pitches per hitter or not going beyond 1-2 counts.
i know that was also the braves philosophy with leo mazzone, maddux and glavine.
we've got a couple of junior pitchers right now that understand this concept. they were our 1 and 2 pitchers last year as 10th graders and had good seasons. they still get their share of k's on 0-2, 1-2 counts.

southpaw_dad,

I understand that line of thinking, but it might not work as the hitters start getting better. The pitches that are creating poor contact at one level sometime create solid contact at the next level. Those darn hitters are better at every level you move up. As important as keeping the pitch counts down, it only works when hitters are being retired. While this might work for your son, others might throw 10-15 pitches that result in 5 runs. It's great that your son sees this as being aggresive and attacking hitters. Making them hit his pitch is also great, but what's wrong with making them miss the pitch? I know... It's that pitch count thing! It's just a personal preference, If it were possible, I like pitchers who miss bats completely. Those would be the ones with the best stuff and they would also get the most "poor" contact. That doesn't mean the other way doesn't work. There are plenty of good pitchers who don't strikeout lots of hitters. It could be said that they pitch to contact, but I think that is just the result of things rather than anything else. The hardest throwers with the best stuff tend to get the most strikeouts. The others don't get as many strikeouts, but they are good enough to limit the solid contact.

Whether someone likes the phrase “pitching to contact” or not, I think most understand what it means. Also I think there are times/situations where pitching to contact is the correct thing to do.

It seems like every time small pitchers, lesser velocity, pitching to contact is brought up, Maddux’s name is mentioned. His size is what it is, but it’s been mentioned many times that Maddux threw 94 as a high school kid. Even though not big he was a dominate pitcher that was pretty much untouchable, striking everyone out in high school. That is what causes a high school 6’00 RHP to get drafted in the 2nd round! It wasn't because he was good at pitching to contact. It was because no one could hit him.

If someone takes a look at his career, you will see his best strikeout years SO/9 were from 1991 to 2000. Those were his best years, winning 4 Cy Young awards during that span and finished among the top 5 in Cy Young voting another 4 times. In other words, for the most part, his best years were his highest strikeout years.

Anyway, even though the concept of pitching to contact might make sense, is it really possible? One could say, it means the pitcher is filling the strike zone which will cause more contact and that makes sense. But it must be understood that hitters are up there to “make contact”. Hitters want good contact, pitchers want bad contact or no contact. Good stuff, quality pitches, create a lot of bad contact or no contact. To me “no contact” will always be more productive than any other type of contact.

In some situations no contact or the strikeout become even more important than other times. Sometimes throwing strikes and getting contact is the most important thing. ie. Relief pitcher comes in with a 2 run or more lead and the hitter can’t tie the game with one swing. We all know that the hitter can’t beat us, so that would be the time to fill the zone. If that hitter leads off with a triple, the pitcher changes, he needs a strikeout, and the walk isn’t quite as big a concern. Please understand that I am generalizing here and that every situation calls for different thinking.

But overall, you have three things that can happen when you throw the baseball… 1-Good contact… 2-Bad contact… 3-No contact (either ball or strike) I’m not sure what a hitters batting average will be when he makes contact (either good or bad contact) But I know for certain what a hitters batting average is when he makes no contact.

There are some pitchers at the highest levels of pro or college baseball that are successful without striking out a lot of hitters. But as a high school age player, unless you are pitching against the best high school hitters in the country, for the most part, you are going to need to punch out a good number in order to create a lot of interest for the higher levels.

The Aflac Game has, arguably, the top high school hitters and the top high school pitching prospects. The number of strikeouts is astounding each year. Those pitchers are not pitching to contact, yet as they get older and in professional baseball, they will learn when and where to pitch to “bad” contact. In the meantime the best pitchers in high school are guys like Jameson Taillon who struck out 16 or 17 against Cuba in the gold medal game recently. He is a much better prospect than the high school kids who are pitching to contact. Or maybe he too pitches to contact, but his stuff is so good there just isn’t much contact made.

None of this means anything. I actually believe that nearly every post made on this subject makes sense. The only reason that I’ve posted is because this is an interesting topic, not because my opinion is all that important. Bottom line, the ability to throw strikes is extremely important (contact or not).

quote:

Originally posted by ShepFPC28:
Pitching to contact is another way of saying don't be afraid to throw strikes and go right after the hitter. When you pitch to contact though, you're not just throwing the ball down the pipe, you're looking for low strikes down the middle of the plate to try and induce groundballs. The purpose is to get quick easy outs, keep the pitch count low, and to keep the defense involved in the game and on its toes. A lot of times when a pitcher uses this approach they will be ahead in the count more often than not and when they get batters to 2 strikes they will use their strike out pitch.

All good responses here. I agree with the above as to the definition of pitch to contact.

PG makes good points, there is good contact and poor contact, and there is nothing better than a 3 pitch strike out, but we all know that doesn't happen all of the time. Coach May's last paragraph is pretty accurate also. Often times than not though, most pitchers when facing tough hitters go deeper in counts, that is why the pitch to contact makes sense in keeping the count low, especially for youong pitchers (JMO).

All pitchers are different, I always considered son a pitch to contact guy more than a strike out pitcher, but that didn't mean make each hitter hit you each time you throw, there are times when it does become necessary. He is a ground ball sinker guy, which means he often times needs to pitch to contact (especially after handing out a freeby) to induce a DP, then he becomes the pitch to contact pitcher, producing the bloopy ball that is easily put into play to get out of the inning.

Good thread and good posts.

I want to see pitchers throw well enough so that the hitter has/or wants to commit his bat. Doesn't mean a fat fastball down the middle, but good enough the hitter can't easily ignore the pitch. Requires alot of focus from the pitcher and he can't be afraid and try to make the hitter miss (hard to steer a ball once in flight). Problem I see in HS are pitchers trying to get a hitter to chase a ball and they miss the plate by two feet; they lost focus and all they did was give the hitter more of a clue. Keep the ball around the plate and keep your teammates in the game, mentally and score-wise. Just throw quality pitches (doesn't mean every pitch is a strike) and most HS pitchers will be successful.

Inconsistent focus on the mound plagues many a HS pitcher. Most don't let up physically on the mound but often lose their mental edge when ahead in the count and figure they have it made with this hitter instead of finishing the hitter off. They quit thinking they are in a fight and go on cruise control.

Throw to contact...I never thought of the term as just letting the batter hit the ball. Rather I think of it as making batters hit a pitchers pitch not a hitters pitch. If you miss your spot, miss it where you want to miss it, not dead over the middle waist high. I love seeing alot of checked swings from hitters; often means the pitcher has just enough movement/location/deception to confuse the hitters. Really like the checked swing strikes.

Pitchers with the 90+mph heat are going to win nearly every battle in HS so they should attack the hitter aggressively. I want them thinking K's. Maddux became deadly when he mastered location and movement; was always faster than people gave him credit for. Hated when he left the Braves. Maddux had a killer instinct; he was an assasin versus Viking might be an analogy. Never saw him quit on the mound even when he was having an off day.

No matter the talent of the pitcher, if he is going lose the battle I want him to lose with his best pitch he has that day. Sometimes you are going lose due to a bad swing on a good pitch...tip your hat to the hitter and go on back to pitching. Just fight the battle on your terms. Usually hitters win by hitting mistakes, not good pitches, particularly the higher the level of baseball. Problem for pitchers is that a good pitch in HS may not be so good at the next level; they need to continually improve at each level.

Pitching is hard stuff; that's why they make the big bucks and get the W-L record beside their name.

No, I never really pitched. I always could easily throw strikes but.... I was trying to throw it past them but it just didn't happen. Think Christmas tree being lit up. Later on I learned a nasty slider and a good screwball and had a blast throwing BP but preferred being behind the plate. Always liked the mental aspect of pitching just never really had the overpowering velocity or mechanics to last long on the mound; I always thought I could hit the stuff I threw. Not a good sign for a pitcher.

our philosphy we teach our pitchers is never have your fastballs touch the white of the plate. throw your breaking pitchers over the plate unless 2 strikes - then throw it for a strikeout.
the more accurate term is pitch for soft contact.

How about trying the moniker "Situational Pitching" on for size? Is this a better fit for what we are talking about? People talk about situational hitting all the time; in recent years, I have come to think about situational pitching ...

Nobody on -- "Pitch to contact", with the goal of inducing a ground ball or pop-up in 3 pitches or less. If you can overpower the hitter; go ahead and blow him away with 3 pitches. Attack the hitters. Don't waste pitches. The goal is to get 3 outs while expending as little effort as possible. Use location, movement and changing speeds to keep hitters off balance and making poor contact.

Runner on 1st (or 1st & 2nd) and less than 2 outs -- Let's pitch for the ground ball with the goal of turning 2. Give that dead pull hitter something to roll over; or jam that guy who likes to lean in and extend his arms. Pitch for the GB or the K, and stay away from likely Fly-Ball pitches.

Runner(s) in scording position, no force, less than 2 outs -- Time to pitch for the K. Time to reach inside and find the foucs and the will to strike him out.

What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
OK, someone explain to me what this actually means.

I was talking to a friend whose son just finished a successful season pitching at the AA level. At one point in the season they were trying to teach him to "pitch to contact." I've heard the phrase before, but never had it explained to me.

I went back to read over your question. Not really understanding why a successful pitcher in AA needs that advice, other than he may go deep into the count or doesn't allow the defense behind him much work.

I guess than that the best question to ask him would be "why" do they want to do that, but Coach May pretty much summed it up.

To me when you tell a kid to pitch to contact, you're really asking him to recognize that the game's outcome is based on the number of runs scored, not the number of K's he runs up. The mindset of piling up personal statistics is often counterproductive to the team goal of winning.

1- and 2-pitch outs are the best thing a pitcher can have. There are ways to get them. E.g., if you have a hard boring fastball, start it in the hitting zone and let it hammer the batter (now swinging) on the fists. If you have a tailing, sinking fastball, again start it in the heart of the zone, draw the swing, and let the guy nub it off the end of his bat.

Strikeouts have their place. If you're a dominant HS guy and you're at the bottom of their order, you can probably just blow them away and move on. If you throw two fastballs and the guy looks overmatched, finish him off and get on to getting the next out. But going through the heart of any order against kids armed with metal bats, I'd like to avoid showing them my K approach/pitches unless the situation calls for it. Leave something they haven't yet seen for that later inning sitiuation where you really need the K.

E.g., man on 3d and only one out. If you have a killer slider, do you think your chances of getting the K are better if the batter has seen it 5 times already, or if he's seen it only once, or not at all?

Trying to pile up K's will lead to more walks, higher pitch count innings, and shorter outings (in terms of innings). Jameson Taillon has the stuff to strike out anyone and everyone, but most of us don't have that luxury.

No matter how one pitches, he will see plenty of contact. Missing bats is the most important thing. Of course, it is great to get that one pitch out, whether someone is pitching to contact or not, that can happen.

Pitchers need to be able to miss bats. It might save pitch count if they are able to get poor contact. Ground ball pitchers at the higher levels is a very good thing. Most of the MLB groundball pitchers are low 90s sinker guys.

High school pitchers who don't strikeout high school hitters might be good for the high school level, but they will probably need better stuff than that to be successful at the next level.

Situational pitching does exist. Ex... Man on 2B with no outs, pitcher wants the ball hit to the left side. He should try to pitch accordingly until he is behind in the count. Remember that good hitters are also aware of that same situation. Baseball is truly a great game!

You do the best you can with what you bring to the table. My interpretation of pitching to contact is not trying for the strikeout until you get two strikes on the hitter. You do the best with what you've got but when you do get ahead with two strikes on a hitter, strikeouts are gold and you go for it.

Some pitchers can make hitters miss their fastballs and some can't. It is a combination of velocity, movement and deception. If it is easy to time a fastball, e.g. some pitchers with a long arm action, then they usually aren't going to miss bats with the fastball and they need to recognize that they need to develop an offspeed pitch that they can use to get the strikeout.