A lot of this "debate" could be put to rest if you'd post one thrower demonstrating the approved Marshal technique. IMO that posting any clips that are not illustrating the optimum Marshal style is only going to fuel the fire and elicit more condescending remarks, which will ultimately change the focus (once again) from the main topic. I urge everyone to be accommodating in a dignified manner in order for this topic to come to fruition.
Posts: 454 | Location: MD | Registered: May 05, 2003
Leg lift is too low. Knee should come up until the upper leg is parallel to the ground.
The break occurs too soon. The break should initiate when the knee starts down after leg lift is completed.
The arm should not be fully extended on the way back. Rather, from the initiation of break, the forearm drops & then comes up in a circle to the high L position.
The arm & upper body are inverted during the forward delivery.
The follow through should be a little greater, but that may be an age related factor.
The hop after follow through is completed is unnecessary, and could be dangerous at HS levels and above. Hard to manuever when your feet are off the ground.
"Show me a guy who won't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser" Sandy Koufax
Posts: 4133 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: June 02, 2003
"Leg lift is too low. Knee should come up until the upper leg is parallel to the ground."
This is by design. You can get to the plate faster, without losing significant velocity, by eliminating the leg lift. It also reduces the likelihood that pitchers will introduce horizontal movement into their motion and lower their arm slot. Major leaguers do a similar thing when they use the slide step. For instance, see the third clip of Jason Urdiqez that is at the top of this thread...
"The break occurs too soon. The break should initiate when the knee starts down after leg lift is completed. The arm should not be fully extended on the way back. Rather, from the initiation of break, the forearm drops & then comes up in a circle to the high L position."
This is by design. Studies show that a longer arm swing is correlated with a lower incidence of shoulder pain. Also, some major leaguers like Freddy Garcia get their arm up very early...
"The arm & upper body are inverted during the forward delivery."
Not sure what this means. If you mean that my hips aren't leading my shoulders, then I agree. Chalk it up to lack of practice and advancing age (I'm 38).
"The hop after follow through is completed is unnecessary, and could be dangerous at HS levels and above. Hard to manuever when your feet are off the ground."
The hop was more of a product of the wet ground than by design. However, if you are to be a good fielder, you have to finish in a strong fielding position (e.g. square to the plate). If you finish with your head down, you're vulnerable to getting beaned. If you finish facing 1B, then you're vulnerable to a bunt down 3B.
Posts: 293 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: November 18, 2005
texan covered eerything and also there is wasted motion and you are dragging your arm it is not in the "L" position.
Not coming to the L position is by design. It eliminates two problems called Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce and Pitching Forearm Flyout that destroy the elbows of many major league (and other) pitchers.
In this clip I am not doing the arm action the way Dr. Marshall wants me to once my shoulders start turning.
The best way to explain what I should be doing is that I should be leading with my elbow as I start turning my shoulders.
I will try to post a clip of what this looks like if I get the chance.
Posts: 293 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: November 18, 2005
...Not coming to the L position is by design. It eliminates two problems called Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce and Pitching Forearm Flyout that destroy the elbows of many major league (and other) pitchers...
Don't forget to add that it reduces velocity also.
Cap_n asked for a clip of someone using Marshall's technique. I take it we aren't going to get it?
Posts: 845 | Location: Midwest | Registered: October 08, 2005
My HS soph son can get to the plate in 1.3 seconds (first move to catchers mitt), from the stretch. Bear in mind, he isn't yet throwing in the mid to high 80's. And that is with a leg lift that comes up until the upper leg is parallel to the ground. As he gains velocity and gets stronger, that time will come on down.
The slide step is not necessary for a quick move to the plate. And the slide step does require pitchers to have two sets of mechanics. The timing is far different for the slide step than without. A quick leg lift and efficient mechanics are all that is needed for a quick time to the plate. Timing starts once the leg (knee) starts to go down. A quick leg lift, therefore, will not affect timing of the break, etc.
I have yet to see a youth pitcher in the slide step who didn't give up velocity and control with the slide step. Of course the slide step can be used successfully. Not arguing that. But it takes a great deal of work over a long period of time, over and above the normal progression of pitching.
But you appeared to be doing the slide step out of a windup. Never seen that before.
And the presence or absence of a slide step has absoutely nothing to do with arm slot.
There better be some horizontal movement in the mechanics. The lack of hip rotation in your demo certainly does rob power.
The clip in the other thread to which you referred here bears little resemblance to your clip in this thread.
I would have to see the study on a straight back arm having any effect on shoulder pain. If anything, it places more stress on the rotator cuff and triceps than the simple arm circle. You can feel this on your own, if you try it.
Inversion: your head is tilted toward first base and your [edit here for clarity] upper arm isn't parallel to the ground, the arm is tilted along with your head.
With good hip rotation, the body will be at least square to the plate. Some pitchers a little more.
"Show me a guy who won't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser" Sandy Koufax
Posts: 4133 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: June 02, 2003
Shepster is totally overwhelmed at the amount of excellent work you put into the 47 pages of Roger C. analysis!!!! Didn't get to Maddux yet but will...
Great deal of Work Sir.
You "truly" love this game, don't cha???
How many total analysis books have you composed?
Must have taken you a while. How many hours?
Shep Cares
Posts: 2445 | Location: USA | Registered: January 09, 2006
Looks to me like Clemens hip rotation takes him past square. At least from the photo in your report.
And your Maddux report doesn't show how he ends up after landing.
Pulling the glove back behind the body does entail a little longer reaction time to the combacker. But it does accomplish two important things. Clearing the glove side shoulder dramatically reduces stress on the throwing arm during deceleration. And by allowing the arm more time until the onset of deceleration, the arm velocity is greater through the period of release. A tradeoff, but a worthwhile one.
"Show me a guy who won't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser" Sandy Koufax
Posts: 4133 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: June 02, 2003
I appreciate the lack of ridicule. It shows self-confidence and class.
"The slide step is not necessary for a quick move to the plate. And the slide step does require pitchers to have two sets of mechanics. The timing is far different for the slide step than without...But you appeared to be doing the slide step out of a windup. Never seen that before."
The advantage of using the Wind-Up Set position that I use in the clip is that you can use it with runners on base or not.
"I have yet to see a youth pitcher in the slide step who didn't give up velocity and control with the slide step. Of course the slide step can be used successfully. Not arguing that. But it takes a great deal of work over a long period of time, over and above the normal progression of pitching."
Agreed. But I would argue that this is due to lack of practice rather than an inherent problem with the slide step.
"And the presence or absence of a slide step has absoutely nothing to do with arm slot."
Not necessarily. If you go from the standard Set position (and the Wind-Up position as well), the temptation exists to "reach back" and/or reverse-rotate the shoulders. If you do this then you will tend to flatten out the take-back side of the arm path which will then flatten out the arm path through the release point. The way to get a more vertical arm slot is to break and take back your hands in a more vertical manner.
"There better be some horizontal movement in the mechanics. The lack of hip rotation in your demo certainly does rob power."
I agree that there has to be a horizontal rotation of the hips and shoulders. My relative lack of it, and more importantly my lack of separation between my hips and shoulders (due to some back problems), will limit my velocity. Not so coincidentally, it also limits the length of my drives in golf.
"I would have to see the study on a straight back arm having any effect on shoulder pain."
The name of the study is "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers." See the last full paragraph on page 465 where they state "Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain." The use of the term "flaw" is deceptive. It just means that what they found didn't correlate with what they were looking for, not that it has any negative impact on performance (as Freddy Garcia demonstrates). You can find it on your own via Google or at...
"If anything, it places more stress on the rotator cuff and triceps than the simple arm circle. You can feel this on your own, if you try it."
This only causes problems if you move your hand behind your back (what Dr. Marshall calls the Acromial Plane) rather than straight back toward 2B. As an example of what not to do, see frame 2.1 of my breakdown of the motion of Don Drysdale (who retired due to shoulder problems)...
"Inversion: your head is tilted toward first base and your forearm isn't at 90 degrees to the ground, it is tilted along with your head."
This is to a large degree by design. Balls that are released with a vertical forearm, and as high as possible, are generally harder to hit. The way to achieve this is to sharply tilt the shoulders.
If you believe that most major league pitchers release the ball with their elbow bent 90 degrees, then you are falling victim to a common misconception. The reality is that pitchers' forearms fly out as their shoulders turn such that their forearms in line with their upper arms. For an axample of this, see frame 26.1 of by breakdown of Steve Carlton's motion...
"Pulling the glove back behind the body does entail a little longer reaction time to the combacker. But it does accomplish two important things. Clearing the glove side shoulder dramatically reduces stress on the throwing arm during deceleration. And by allowing the arm more time until the onset of deceleration, the arm velocity is greater through the period of release. A tradeoff, but a worthwhile one."
I do agree that the longer deceleration path of the arm, the better.
However, the success of many successful major leaguers makes it clear that you don't have to finish with your glove-side arm behind your body to prevent injuries to the rear part of the rotator cuff. Given that, I recommend that pitchers finish in a strong fielding position, as long as doing so doesn't cause them to abbreviate the deceleration path of the arm.
Posts: 293 | Location: St. Louis, MO | Registered: November 18, 2005
This "windup set" will be slow to the plate, even combined with the slide step. It has to be, as the body must rotate. In the stretch, the shoulders and hips are already properly aligned.
If using windup & stretch is a problem (e.g., too much variation), then a pitcher can throw only from the stretch (as some do).
The different slide step mechanics do violate the KISS principle. And from that standpoint there is an inherent problem.
Flail and arm slots are not linked. Pitchers can flail and use any arm slot.
Regarding your study, correlation does not mean causality. And again, all you have to do is feel it yourself. Even with no flail at all, a person can feel greater stress in the rotator cuff and triceps when taking the arm back fully extended as opposed to arm circles. I certainly can feel it. Have you tried it?
What you are describing in your response to the inversion is the "overhead" slot (arm fully extended up to the sky). Not the "overhand" (upper arm parallel to the ground, foream 90 degrees to the ground).
The overhead slot is very stressful on the shoulder. I can't think of a young pitcher I coached who used the overhead slot that didn't have shoulder pain. I always advised them to go to overhand. The ones that went from overhead to overhand saw the pain go away.
And yes, there will be a greater down angle on the pitch. But there will be less horizontal movement on the ball. The overhead pitchers I have seen tend to throw straight & flat. This is easier to hit, even with the added down angle, compared to the pitches from other arm slots that may have slightly less angle but significantly more movement in the horizontal plane.
And with regard to where the forearm is at release, many pitchers use the three quarter slot. Not even overhand, much less overhead.
"Show me a guy who won't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser" Sandy Koufax
Posts: 4133 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: June 02, 2003
