I think this may have been discussed before.

While at a milb game last night one of the pitchers used overhead mechanics (you know arms over head, 12 o'clock slot). Though not as effective or as fast, it is so obvious that the forward motion of the entire body takes much stress off of the arm.

If this is typical mechanics used by pitchers of yesteryear who pitched complete games over and over and rarely sustained injuries, why is this not so common anymore. Why is this not taught? Is it because it limits your arsenal? Is this what is referred to as the classic mechanics? I asked my husband and he had no clue.

Any theories or reasons?

How did he, the pitcher, do?

The pitcher is young, used in relief, and his numbers are fair so far, with a .299 BA against him overall.
Yesterday in 2 innings, 1 walk, 0 SO and two earned runs. The blue last night was pretty easy with the overall zone.
The team was also far ahead of the other. I have seen him pitch twice, once when the game was out of reach both losing end and winnig end.
I am not sure of the velo, but to my husband he thought that he was not throwing as hard as most seen.
I also see that he was originally drafted as a hitter and recently brought up from extended due to a need for relief.

I am not sure if he came to the team with prior pitching experience. The pitching gurus on teh team have a liking for teh classic mechanics, wonder if they taught him this or not.

I would appreciate it if someone could give an opinion about my question asked.

quote:

If this is typical mechanics used by pitchers of yesteryear who pitched complete games over and over and rarely sustained injuries, why is this not so common anymore. Why is this not taught? Is it because it limits your arsenal? Is this what is referred to as the classic mechanics? I asked my husband and he had no clue.

Any theories or reasons?

I don't believe it was a mechs thing, Christy Matthewson was a sidewinder for just one notable example.
I always ask; Whats changed? Well after Gibsons amazing year the mound is lower..that is to me significant. Those guys who threw complete game after complete game...did they throw hard? Yes Feller, Gibson..omg they really did have heat.
Did they throw junk a bunch? Whitey Ford, Steve Carlton? Oh you bet they threw some ugly funk.
Were they as well conditioned as they are now? IMO no, they did their road work..etc but they didn't toss weights as they do now. Really Nolan Ryans work out was a revolutionary thing..not unheard of but rare. To me the huge glaring elephant in the room is travelball, those guys didnb't "travel" until legion ball, minor or college. Now its way too many innings before puberty. And before I get the guys who remember the kid who could "throw all week" (I was one of them)..it was only on a league schedule basis, they ha forever to get better between seasons, now it's hope to get 30 to 60 days rest period...I just don't think it's a mystery or complicated at all, break down of the human machine caused by overuse without adequeate rest...it's the most wonderful machine and resiliant beyond immagine...but we think we can condition for the abuse...I think it only goes so far.
The other aspect is the total concentration on velocity, velo over learning how to pitch (How many times have we all seen...give me 95 and I'LL TEACH him HOW to pitch...this to me is exactly backwards and leads to unnecessary stree on the arm shoulder without proper preparation. I think the guys of old were able to listen to their bodies more and adjust without repercussion. Anyway thats why I think they did it longer, better back in the day. Over the top mechs were there but IMO not the reason for the longevity.

One of the things that hurts pitchers- especially righties, and I have seen it a lot, is that they are constantly told to throw "over the top". Most of the coaches and Dads telling them this do not even understand some of the simple fundamentals of pitching mechanics and how they truly apply. All they are brought up hearing is that lower arm slots leads to injuries and a loss of velocity which is entirely untrue.

My son was told for two years that his arm slot was too low and that he wouldn't be bale to pitch very hard and that he would have ram problems as he got bigger and stronger. As a parent who did not know anything I studied the issue for the past 3 years and found some interesting studies and data on the matter. What I found out is that most lefties have a lower arm slot and also have less arm injuries including the few lefties throwing "over the top". This is primarily due to them not changing their natural lower slot to a higher slot.

As far as slots go I then found some interesting tidbits about pitching mechanics and natural arm slot location. What I found is that almost every pitcher releases the ball in the same exact slot in relation to the angle of their torso. This is because of the natural laws of physics. Almost always, the arm will accelerate and release the ball in the most natural physical line possible away from their torso. This angle will almost invariably be at 90 degrees if you were to hold a giant protractor from the side of their arm at release in relation with the angle of their body. "Over the top" pitchers release the ball from a higher location but in doing so must get more angle from their torso. If you were to draw a line from the angle of the arm at release point you should be able to draw a straight line accroos the extended arm and over to the other shoulder. At the halfway point (center of chest) you will notice that if you were to draw a perpindicular line straigh down the angle of the body you will end up with a perfect 90 degree angle. This is true for almost every pitcher irregardless of arm slot at release. Another test is to put your arms at your sides and extend them upwards from your body until the shoulder muscles become flexed but not over flexed. You will also notice that they become flexed (at their strongest) when they are at a perfect 90 degree angle from your side. The human arm is perfectly designed to throw things according to the natural laws of physics working most effeciently (imagine that).

Another test is to take a string and tie a small washer to the end and then tie the other end to a smal round dowel. Now take the stick and quickly roll it between yopur fingers and you will be putting physics into effect. The string angle at its most effecient and highest velocity will be at a perfect 90 degree angle away from the dowel. The human body, working as a living catapult to throw a baseball must maintain the same physics for maximum velocity while also not working against itself and thus causing injury. This is the magic 90 degree angle. I worry about pitchers coming too much "over the top" because they sometimes extend beyond the 90 degrees and thus are not only working against the physics of velocity, they are in danger of having shoulder problems and injury.

So, when I now look at pitchers, I look more into making sure they are at the 90 degree mark. Arm slot should only be in relation to the ground and not in relation to the torso- every pitcher should throw in the same relation with their torso.

TPM,

"I think this may have been discussed before."

If Kharma posted here it was discussed here?

”While at a milb game last night one of the pitchers used overhead mechanics (you know arms over head, 12 o'clock slot). Though not as effective or as fast,”

Remember he was throwing his personal genetic release velocity and arm vector has nothing to do with it.

“it is so obvious that the forward motion of the entire body takes much stress off of the arm.”

What you see is correct.

”If this is typical mechanics used by pitchers of yesteryear who pitched complete games over and over and rarely sustained injuries,”

This is not the typical mechanics of yesteryear they had as many different angle as we do today and injury rates are exactly the same then as now. Only our youth injuries have increased. The fact that nowadays many more pitchers are coming back from injuries skews our perception because back them when you got hurt you were done, the term used was dead arm.

Why is this not taught?

Because most people will follow what MLB people believe is the way to do it and we all know that there is no degrees hanging on those instructors walls.

Is it because it limits your arsenal?

Your arsenal doubles when you throw of off center mass. From this position you can get the ball to do the same thing to both sides. Not only a curve, also it’s reverse pitch the screwball, not only a slider, also it’s reverse pitch the Sinker and not only a fastball but fastballs that tail either way all with pronated releases if desirable.

“Is this what is referred to as the classic mechanics?”

I would say classic mechanics were the ones used in the 30’s and below where the pitchers would double pump then throw there legs up above their heads>

“The pitching gurus on teh team have a liking for teh classic mechanics, wonder if they taught him this or not. I would appreciate it if someone could give an opinion about my question asked. Any theories or reasons?”

They call them classic because they do not want to call them Marshall but they are.

You are involved through you son and through the Cardinal Org. the first signs of curiosity about how to really eliminate throwing related injuries with a few of their new roving pitching instructors. Are you aware that the Cardinals have been in contact with Marshall and in fact one of your instructors might be playing with a few of Marshall tenets? All though I doubt any of them can apply it corectly with their limited understanding and natural tendency to subvert it or mix it in some way.

Gingerbread Man,

“One of the things that hurts pitchers- especially righties,”

Anatomically lefties and righties are exactly the same only their brain hemispheres are working differently. This mechanical change in humeral vectoring is beneficial and injury preventing not the other way around.

“ All they are brought up hearing is that lower arm slots leads to injuries”

They are all hearing the truth

“and a loss of velocity which is entirely untrue”

This is a true statement,. you do not loose velocity, unless they are talking about not being able to pitch because you blew up your UCL from low arm angle forearm bounce.

Found some interesting studies and data on the matter. What I found out is that most lefties have a lower arm slot and also have less arm injuries including the few lefties throwing "over the top". This is primarily due to them not changing their natural lower slot to a higher slot.

I’d like to read those studies, sounds anecdotal to me, maybe it’s because we are in the Northern hemisphere and the righties in the Southern hemisphere have the more lower arm slots!

“The human body, working as a living catapult to throw a baseball must maintain the same physics for maximum velocity”

Catapults throw objects of off center mass just like high humeral vector pitchers.
Humeral and forearm fly out are the cause of most of the major shoulder and elbow
Injuries known.

“This is the magic 90 degree angle.”

This mechanic that has been taught for a century has caused UCL degradation in all that use it and total failure in many!

“So, when I now look at pitchers, I look more into making sure they are at the 90 degree mark. Arm slot should only be in relation to the ground and not in relation to the torso- every pitcher should throw in the same relation with their torso.”

You are ensuring their traditional breakdown!

Yardbird,

The 90 degree angle of the torso in relation to the arm slot at the moment of release is done by just about every mlb pitcher. I have watched the slow-mo replays and almost every one of them have that 90 degree angle with the arm almost straight out and in a 90 degree relation to their body at the moment of release.

It is not something that is taught either. It is just the natural mechanics that come from throwing a lot and throwing hard.

My son has always pitched from a low 3/4 arm angle. At release his arm is straight out and is starting its natural pronation upon release causing a sometimes gyro spin on the ball (sinkerball). His joints have never- let me repeat- NEVER caused him discomfort while all of the other kids he throws alongside who throw from a more "over the top" angle are almost constantly in pain in their joints after half the season is over. BTW, my son throws harder than any other kid in his league. So far, the end results of letting him pitch from his natural arm slot has not led to injury while those around him have suffered injury after injury.

So, I am a strong believer in that 90 degree slot in relation to the torso because - 1. it obeys the natural laws of motion of axis and 2. most every mlb pitcher for the last hundred years throws that way.

Certainly all of them mlb pitchers can't be throwing with screwed up arm angles at release are they?

Lefty pitchers are usually left alone in their deliveries from what I gather

What I began to see in the 80's is a lot of young pitchers work off balance when their hands went to 12 o'clock on pre-pitch wind. Some saw it as an efficiency thing, and others wanted less physical movement before the pitch. So I saw more and more teaching on the small movements on pre-pitch. I believe that old time pitchers were rotating the shoulder and cuff and had better movement of fluids to that area and therefore protected the shoulder better. But I ain't no Dr and I'm not sure. Soon after seeing this, it became stylish to shorten that pre-pitch motion. Notice a lot of the japanese pitchers still stretch out and over before each pitch and they have less of a history of arm injury than American kids. Could be something to it.

I disagree that Christy Mathewson was a sidearmer--the couple of video clips I have seen show about a 10 o'clock arm-slot for him.

That being said, Gingerbreadman is entirely correct: The "intrinsic" arm-slot of human throwers (i.e., the angle measured between the pitcher's own sternum and his elbow at release point) is about 90 degrees for everybody. Pitchers achieve different "functional" arm-slots (i.e., arm-angle measured relative to a line perpendicular to the plane of the ground) by leaning their torsos away (high arm-slot) or toward (submarine arm-slot) their throwing side.

Walter Johnson, Dizzy Dean, and Carl Hubbell are three very clear examples from among the many sidearmed pitchers of yesteryear.

I don't think a normal person could find fault with Walter Johnson's longevity, his 417 MLB win total, or his velocity (which is estimated to have been in the mid-to-high 90's). Of course, Mike Marshall would likely argue with Walter Johnson's mechanics but that is pretty stale news...

If you really dig down into the subject of current pitchers' arm-slots...approximately 11% of current MLB pitchers are sidearmers. About 2.5% show clear evidence of using two distintly different arm-slots (side-arm is usually one of them). About 7% of current pitchers could reasonably be called "over-the-top" guys.

quote:

Originally posted by laflippin:
If you really dig down into the subject of current pitchers' arm-slots...approximately 11% of current MLB pitchers are sidearmers. About 2.5% show clear evidence of using two distintly different arm-slots (side-arm is usually one of them). About 7% of current pitchers could reasonably be called "over-the-top" guys.

Just curious where you got your data?

I think the arm issues may be caused by the glove hand/off shoulder being out of symetry regardless of slot. For what is is worth the video I have seen of Johnson shows that he had a very "whippy" arm almost like the snap of a whip.

BOF,

Agree completely with your idea about lack of glove arm/throwing arm symmetry being a cause for concern. You see the greatest number of examples of asymmetry among beginner level youth pitchers. The higher the level you look at, the fewer examples of glove arm-throwing arm asymmetry you will see. For whatever reason, there is a huge amount of selection pressure that weeds out pitchers who do not have "equal and opposite" (i.e., symmetric) arms from hand separation through to footstrike. There are many different ways that individuals achieve "equal and opposite" symmetry, but the wrist and elbow angles should be the same for both arms.

I also agree completely with your characterization of Johnson as having "whip-like" arm-action.

Here's how I compiled data to support my estimations:

In April, 2008 I printed out the then-current pitching staff rosters for each of the 30 MLB clubs. There were about 430 pitchers listed at that time. I went to the Getty Images website and searched each name with "pitcher" as a keyword, i.e.: Joe Smith pitcher

Of the 430 pitchers, about 380 of them had photos on the Getty Images website that were at, or near enough, the release point to determine their "arm-slot". 42/380 = 11 % fell within my criteria for "side-arm": For a RHP, I define "side-arm" from about 8:45 to about 9:15 on the clock (hitter's perspective).

Yardbird,

Yes, I do know a bit about what you speak of. I also know that they are trying to understand why pitchers break down and what changes to make to prevent further injury on some(eg. Chris Carpenter).

I thank you for answering my questions so that I could understand (without asking questions as an answer) and I thank everyone else for their input.

TPM,

You should also be aware that there are two sides to every story and the two sides may not always agree on their versions of the story, especially when Mike Marshall is concerned.

The Cardinals roving instructor that Yardbird mentioned did indeed discuss mechanics ideas with MM. The RI in question has studied the ideas/methods of most of the thought-leaders in pitching mechanics and he is a very accomplished and open-minded coach with many years of experience.

Shortly after their joint discussions (as I said, the RI is no slouch--he understands pitching mechanics ideas very deeply and contributed equally to the conversations as far as I am aware) Marshall started gloating and raving on his website, "We have won! We have won! The Cardinals are going to teach my ideas!".

Then the gloating and ranting phase turned into the accusation phase: "The Cardinal's RI is ripping off my ideas, teaching them incorrectly, and not giving me (MM) the credit that is due to me."

Then the accusation phase turned into the character assasination phase: "The RI doesn't know squat, he has know idea how to coach pitchers, he is a moron who will only continue to destroy arms, etc".

It's always the same pattern with Marshall--the man is seriously delusional, as are his insular followers.

Wow, that's not good news and rude.

I was refering to that I knew who the RI was and I know they have spoken to the MM camp. The RI is a very accomplished instuctor and coach and well spoken of by people who know him and my own player.

Thanks for the info.

Come on La, 10 is way close to side arm...maybe not pure but I was just throwing out an example
Actually I was thinking Walter Johnson and Christy came out

TPM,

If you listen to Laflippins tenor you will see who is raving.

Marshall is trying to help our boys, people like Laflippen and there is many have some kind of Marshall fear that is misplaced and destructive.

Your son had UCL reconstruction, which can be totally eradicated by a few small mechanical changes of Marshall’s. I hope the roving instructors teach him what they are!

Laflippen,

"We have won! We have won! The Cardinals are going to teach my ideas!".

Ya, that’s how Marshall writes, if your going to lie it might as well be a Duzy.
Marshall’s fear is a real one in that they may only cherry pick a few of his tenets Instead of most of them, at least a few will help.

Gingerbreadman,

“The 90 degree angle of the torso in relation to the arm slot at the moment of release is done by just about every mlb pitcher. I have watched the slow-mo replays and almost every one of them have that 90 degree angle with the arm almost straight out and in a 90 degree relation to their body at the moment of release.”

No argument here, have you seen the pitchers DL list this week”
Smolts had the Magic 90.

”It is not something that is taught either. It is just the natural mechanics that come from throwing a lot and throwing hard.”

BS, it’s taught!

”My son has always pitched from a low 3/4 arm angle. At release his arm is straight out and is starting its natural pronation upon release”

This is called involuntary late pronation after his violent supination snaps his hand back the other way.

“all of the other kids he throws alongside who throw from a more "over the top" angle are almost constantly in pain in their joints after half the season is over. BTW, my son throws harder than any other kid in his league. So far, the end results of letting him pitch from his natural arm slot has not led to injury while those around him have suffered injury after injury.”

They all throw with the same destructive outside of vertical, forearm fly out that your son throws with, lets hope he stays healthy.

”So, I am a strong believer in that 90 degree slot in relation to the torso because - 1. it obeys the natural laws of motion of axis and 2. most every mlb pitcher for the last hundred years throws that way.”

Why don’t Javelin throwers throw like traditional pitchers if it is superior?
They all get in the same position that Marshall espouses, Inside of vertical
All of my students that get their humerus and forearm up never get injured but then they also use most of the rest of Marshalls tenets.

”Certainly all of them mlb pitchers can't be throwing with screwed up arm angles at release are they?”

Yep, but things are changing slowly!

”Lefty pitchers are usually left alone in their deliveries from what I gather”

Not on the left coast, the pitching coaches blow these lefties up just as fast as the righties.

Yardbird,

The 90 degree angle of the relation of the body and arm slot at release is not taught. That is the natural angle of release following simple laws of motion. Take this simple test- I will prove it-

Stand up with your arms loose and at your sides. Now rotate your hips and turn from left to right very fast letting your arms rise. You will note that when you get your arms swinging back and forth with fast velocity (the same motion a pitcher uses to gain velocity) your arms will be straight out and at a perfect 90 degree angle. That is not taught, it is just the natural line of motion as the appendage (the arm in this case) rotates on an accelerating axis. Now do the same test but this time modify your arms to go either slightly higher or lower. You will now note that what you are doing is teaching your arms to follow an unatural path of motion- one of inefficiency. This modification takes not only extra energy, but the body must work against the laws of motion causing an uneeded duration of resistance. Resistance leads to injury.

I highly doubt that most mlb pitchers are pitching with screwed up mechanics. The acceleration phase of the hand in its load to release phase happens in about 1/50th of a second to go from 0-95mph. For my son who is twelve, he goes from 0-65mph in about 1/30th of a second. This massive acceleration of the arm must follow the path of least resistance if the pitcher is going to do this 75-100 times or more in a game and then do it all over again a couple days later.

Now take into account the weight of the hand and arm as it accelerates into release. We are talking about that arm beginning to weigh a lot at release point. It weighs so much (has so much momentum weight) that it takes a very strong front leg to keep the body from crashing forward into the ground. We are taliking about a lot of force. Could you imagine the resistant forces in place if that arm isn't out at the natural 90 degrees? Talk about potential arm injury!

I'm siding with the laws of physics here. Seems God made the arm and its muscles to be most effective and efficient at the perfect 90 degree angle with the arm mostly straight out.

YB,
Uh... get your facts straight my son never had UCL reconstuction surgery. That statement alone just knocked out whatever credibility you want to find here. You can't get on others for not having their facts straight when you don't have your info correct or going by assumptions.

Actually, besides a bout or two with tendinitous, he has never had a major injury in his life. No rips no tears. Normal wear and tear. A pitchers arm is like a car, clean and perfect from the factory, but then becomes used and worn after many miles, the more you take care of it, tune it up, the better it might run, period. Every once in a while you get a certain one that just seems to go on forever, for some reason or another and you never really did much to maintain it. JMO.

I am not sure why son has remained essentially seriously uninjured, could be adequate rest between starts when younger, adequate shutdown for a young growing body, good clean mechanics, late use of CB, no knuckleballs, no sliders in HS, more dependency on FB, proper rotation of hips during delivery, natural arm slot, slow velo development (in other words his body was throwing 90+ when his body was ready to) durable frame and use of entire body in delivery, pronates. Chris O claims Maddux like mechanics, other say he was built for pitching I am not sure there is really one thing you can place on it and will he always remain that way, who knows. He was taught to pitch way before MM method. I would beleive that cherry picking (a bit of from here, a bit of advice from there) would adequately describe how many are taught to pitch, and lots of common sense and not always 100% of anyone in particulars "tenets". If one really wants to help our young boys, then do it freely and not demand credit and trash anyone afterwards. The true test will be, if any of his young pitchers he may be working with remain injury free and make it through to the highest level.

John Smoltz had shoulder surgery. John Smoltz also came from a system that beleived the more you tossed (not pitched) the better you became. I do beleive that this most likely is not a MM "tenet". Other pitchers that have sustained success going into their later years, most likely due to changes they made within their game or just freaks of nature. I read an article by Glavin, he said that he had to abandon the velo he used to be successful with and begin relying more on off spead and pitch selection. So who really knows why some last longer than others.

I did read his comments regarding the RI and the Cardinals and I can see why he makes enemies.

Things are changing but they will never change if parents continue to watch their players get overused before their young pitchers bodies develop properly, let them pitch year round when younger, force velocity, schlep them to every showcase or tournie in town and play year round. HS coaches and college coaches must handle their pitchers better by concentrating more on pitcher management and development. The damage occurs unfortunetly for many BEFORE a pitcher reaches the ML mound. I think that MLB teams are trying very hard to understand how can they help their pitchers who have been pitching for many years before they came to remain healthy while spending 4-5 years in the system before tehy get there. IMO, there may never be an answer other than having an adequate staff ready to step in when a particular pitcher shows fatique during season. Unfortunely, when you pay someone lots of money you expect 100% out of them.

JMO.

I originally asked the questions because I was wondering why we don't see that delivery often but now understand that delivery is ONLY as effective as the pitcher.

Good video on the subject.

Sandy Koufax

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=853408392612956...hISIqeJ5SGrQLB3MGXDA