Steve, my formula for velocity:

Core Strength + Mechanics + Arm Speed = Velocity

I'm not an expert..just a High School Coach who played a little in College, but I was able to throw fairly hard 90-91. I know it sounds silly, but I grew up on a ranch and really didn't have the oppurtunity to ever train with anyone or get instruction. The way I believe I developed velocity was from intent. I had a couple throwback screens but mainly I threw rubber balls to a rock pump house. I threw 100's of times a day on most days. I rarely threw anything but 90-100%. I never long tossed when I was young just threw the heck out of the ball every time I got a chance. I doubt anyone has ever thrown as many rocks in the history of the world as I did either (probably not good advice) I emulated the Pro's as I threw to the rock wall or my Grandfather who was my catcher I tried dozens and dozens of delivery's before settling for a Nolan Ryan approach. He was my hero and after all the only instructional material I had was the Nolan Ryan Pitchers Bible. Later in Junior High and High School I would take my bucket of balls to several different tennis courts or ball fields and tie and old bicycle tire up and throw the heck out of the baseball. I tried to throw hard at all times! Today as a coach my basic belief is the same. We train core , do sprint work plyo’s, long toss etc using training protocols from Pitching Central and even John Doyle… on and on. What I have told all my pitchers from day one is if you want to throw hard you have to have great intent. My kids air it out every day and we never throw a pen without a radar gun. I have bought both a stalker and jugs out of my own pocket. So far so good. In a nutshell. I tell my kids if you want to throw hard then you can’t lob the ball around. Throw Hard!

Roy,

would you comment on how you felt having the radar gun around helped your boys progress? Thanks.

Sure,

Well first of all it lets me see if they are working at an appropriate intensity if I can't just eyeball it. Like most of you I think i could guess within a mph or 2 without the gun, but it also gives them feedback. Secondly, I believe it createsan atmospere of competition. Just the other day I was in the middle of a competitive bullpen and one kid hit 88. On the very next pitch the other guy hit 88 as well. they were both getting after it and trying to throw harder than the other guy. Lastly, It helps us to determine the velocity spreads between pitches. One quick note. the first place I got a job was a small 2A. We bought a gun and had one kid throwing 80. the very next year we had 7. We went to the State Tourney. We tried to create an environment of throwing hard. It worked out then..

Thanks.

On the velocity differential...are you shooting for a optimum differential target (ie, at least 8 but no more than 12 mph slower than the fastball). Or is there some other type of situation that this helps to correct with offspeed pitches. [I'm trying to learn some of the detail of this sport and this is very helpful to me]

Actually it is a little more complex than this. Go to www.hittingisaguess.com and click on "Effective velocity" and "Filthy" to get some more details.

If you want a lot of information, purchase book 3.

there is a bootcamp in houston in December that is expensive, but very good put on by Baseball Central. Husband was there last year. He has good stuff..Probably overboard for High School kids, but good. I look for exactly that. i would like more than that if possible. This is not a lie. I had a kid last year. Change 68...Fastball 72...slider 70..No difference, but they were different looking pitches. He got ripped..Didn't pitch much at 72 but was lefty.. He would not make an adjustment.

This may be worth nothing but...

My son threw in the high 80s as a sophomore. We moved to East Texas and he was on a high school team with a kid that topped at 93. Within months, he did too. I agree with coach. He was pushed by the other kid. The other kid had a team mate who graduated before we got there and he topped out at 94 (is in the Big Leagues). I think he was pushed by that kid.

I work with my younger son with a radar gun (Stalker). Not always but often. He has the intent to throw hard and does for his age. He tops in the mid-60s and could play in the 10 year old division by age, but plays up.

The gun not only gives him feedback and pushes him, but he also sometimes gets out of his mechanics trying to over-throw. When he does the gun shows him it did not come out faster.

My older son attended the Baseball Central camps and threw a ball 350+ feet in high school. He told me he wasn't going to let the college pitcher who was there out-throw him.

Velocity can be pushed. However, I would love to challenge coaches and even scouts on guessing velocity within 2 MPH without a gun. Every high school kid in Texas throws 90 until I gun them. One of the featured games of the month a few years ago was my son versus a kid reportedly throwing 94. My kid topped at 93, he topped at 88 (only once). He was predominantly 83-86. Nothing wrong with that but certainly not mid-90s.

I am willing to bet PG can guess all three kids.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
This may be worth nothing but...

The gun not only gives him feedback and pushes him, but he also sometimes gets out of his mechanics trying to over-throw. When he does the gun shows him it did not come out faster.

Every high school kid in Texas throws 90 until I gun them.

Actually I think it is worth a lot. I know that a lot coaches are now focusing on "intent" to throw hard. I think this is one of the benefits of Long Toss since a player can see how far you are throwing and it provides immediate feedback without a gun.

Regarding the second point, this holds true in sports, business, almost anything in life "if you want to improve something -measure it"

BTW you have stumbled on one of life's fundamental truth's and HSBBW's number one pitching theorem "ask dad and subtract 7"

Thought I would balance what is being said. My older son played his first year for an ACC university and was pitching against a team from I think the Big 10. He hit 94-97, walked two hit one and was gone.

There is functional velocity and top velocity. There are some who can bench press 300 lbs many times but only top out at 325. There are others who can bench 340 but cannot bench 300 very many times in a row.

What needs to be pushed is functional velocity, not max out out-of-control velocity. My older son was more effective working 88-93, and sometimes the lower reads were 86-87. His functional velocity was pushed up by many good pitchers before him.

Max speed in baseball doesn't mean a lot if it is not functional. However, higher functional speed means domination by a pitcher.

Use of the radar gun will initially push non-functional speeds with many kids. However, after familiarity they will barely notice the gun. A side benefit is later when others gun them, they won't throw to the gun. They'll just pitch.

One other note. I used to believe you always had to work at 80-100% speeds. I no longer believe that. My 11 year old is worked with short-boxing. We throw 1/2 distance to a catcher at low speeds. This is where I work grips, rotation down a line, and dynamic balance and can see his mechanics better. I realized, too late for the older one, that the lower and upper body has to be timed whether throwing slow, medium or fast. His mechanics are pretty good. I can work long sessions with him and not hurt him.

Also, I can get a head start on curve balls and sliders without letting him throw them in a game or at a speed that will hurt him. He has a pretty good curve that is warehoused for later.

At the end of the sessions, we back up to 2/3 then full length and he throws a little full speed. At full speed, I quit talking mechanics and tell him to find his rhythm. This is a missing element in so many paid for lessons.

I would take the bet on the 2 mph! But just because I have two girls and no boys I believe 100% in the -7 rule.. How many times have I been worried about some dude we are about to face that throws it up there 90 and instead runs it up there at 84-86 .....common velocity from a good 4A-5A kid in Texas. Of course some do throw that hard.

there is a place for flat ground work and touch and feal for sure. We do it a-lot and its beneficial.

The gun is huge in keeping your kids grounded when a gun does show up at a game. They don't try and light it up as much..anyways good luck to everyone this off-season.

I apologize if any of this has already been covered, but I do not have time to read the whole thread right now. Gaining velocity is very simple. You will only gain what your potential allows you to, but to maximize your potential:
1) Long-toss 3-4 times a week
2) Get stronger without losing range of motion
3) DO NOT let anybody put you on a waited ball program.

MWestbury, Bum, Jr. dropped two pitching coaches ASAP.. one of whom suggested weighted balls and the other varying arm slots.

BTW, he long-tossed 5-6x/week year-round, no breaks (except for periodic "strategic rest" periods where he would go 3-4x week--maybe for 6 week periods about 2x year).

I agree with Bum .
There are safer ways to develop velocity than weighted balls. They cause undue stress on the shoulder even thought they aren't that heavy.
My son experienced his 1st pain in his shoulder when his JR year college P coach changed his arm slot.

Long-tossing year shows an outstanding work ethic, which will take Jr. a long ways, but I encourage my pitchers to shut throwing down for 6-8 weeks during the fall. I want to them to focus on core strength and agility. Every player needs this kind of rest, especially with as many games as a pitcher might throw now that travel teams play so many games. Alot of kids go from December or January until august without taking any kind of break. This is as long as a major league season lasts, and kids the bodies are not developed like major leaguers. Even pro pitchers take an extensive break after the season.

I agree with taking a break from the pitching, but long-tossing year round is what gave Bum, Jr. the arm speed he needed. He is a LHP, only about 5'9". He was about 70 entering high school, 79 as a sophomore, 87 as a junior, 89 as a senior and now cruises 88-90 topping about 92 as an entering sophomore in college. I firmly believe none of it would have been possible without a consistent long toss program.

Bum

What school did your son go to (D1-D2...etc)
and what kind of Freshman year did he have?
(Redshirt)

For such a small stature, 5'9, he can bring it.

Thanks

D1 Pac-10. His freshman year he got a few innings early in the year in 35 degree weather and struggled with his command, which is very unlike him.. a few more innings later on and settled in and did okay.. then rolled an ankle and was shut down for the season. Not much to brag about his freshman year. But was pitcher of the year in the Prospect League with 89 k's in 68 innings going 8-3, including a roll of about 35 consecutive shutout innnings and six straight wins after starting 0-2. Had a great fall and should be ready to go.

Yea, he's small, but what he lacks in size he makes up in work ethic, attitude, stuff and smarts. I'm here to tell you that there is not necessarily a correlation between size and velocity. Long-toss, long-toss, long-toss.

A question for all of you with knowledge of the long toss simulation program from Florida. How accurate is it? That is, does the distance thrown vel (as calulated by the simulation )correspond to actual radar gun readings?

I've been reading about strength training and from the info I looked at it says that speed and power are increased when doing high intensity workouts in the rep range of 1-5. So I was thinking would you be able to apply that to your arm to make it more explosive? like could you go to one of those pulley machines where people do tricep pulldowns, and put it at shoulder level and then go through your throwing motion, starting from the cocked position, explosively with a weight you can only do for 3-5 reps to train your arm to be faster? I mean the theory works for athletes looking to increase their vertical, why wouldn't it work for velocity? just a thought.