I have a general question regarding pitchers and size. What is the reason that a pitcher who is 6" 2" tall and 185 lbs would be preferred over a pitcher who is 5'9" and 185 lbs. if both were throwing the same same speed. What difference does the size make if they throw the same speed and have the same "stuff".

Also, I was talking to a dad at one of the showcase baseball games that my son was attending and he said a college coach he was talking to said he didn't care how fast a pitcher throws he would not consider him if he is under 6' tall. After hearing this comment, I started looking on some DI college baseball sites and most of the pitchers were indeed 6' or taller. Some of the DIII teams that I looked at have pitchers that are shorter but the top programs had mostly pitchers taller than 6'.

Obviously, there must be something to the "tall" pitcher theory, I just am not sure what or why it is. Thank you in advance for any insight you can give me on this issue!!

the angle the ball go to homeplate is more downward, thus making it harder hit.

And what is the angle difference between a 5'11" pitcher and a 6'2" pitcher?

As stated above, the downward angle is increased. Also, the wingspan of a taller pitcher is greater. The arms are longer and the release point, when combined with the longer stride, is just that much closer to home plate. The difference may be small, but its said to make the ball harder to pick up and harder to hit. Both are slight advantages, but when combined, advantages none the less.

KC I have heard that expressed by MLB scouts. I read an article in Sports Illustrated a few years ago and several scouts said that plus were told npt to submit a report on a RHP unless he was 6'2" +.
I have a LHP friend in the minors who was told his bonus would have bee higher if he was tallr. He always put 6'1" on his stats but he was barely 5'11". He was taken about 3 rounds later than he should have been.
I am not so sure I believe all of this but Tall has been a plus factor.

So the 6'2" pitcher is, say, 5" closer to home plate that the 5'11" pitcher. That is a 0.7% closer to home plate. Yes, not even 1%.

As for the angle, the difference in angle between a 6'2" pitcher and a 5'11" pitcher is a mere 0.2 degrees. Next to nothing.

Obviously, these "advantages" would easily be far overwhelmed by other factors.

This is something that always bothered me, you have guys like Pedro,Bartolo,Maddeux,Hudson,Wagner... just to name a few who are lucky if they're 6' in shoes who have been very successful.But they still don't seem to give the 6' a fight'n chance. Not fair but just the way it is. Some people are good looking and some people look like me. Now how fair is that?

To me I would think the real advantage is a tall skinny suple body that allows a smooth easy delivery. The ball is released out front so the angle is somewhat negated. If you release high you will be collecting balls in the parking lot.

BHD, is there that much difference in the smooth easy delivery of a skinny, supple 6'2" and a skinn, supple 5'11"?

Or do all 5'11" pitchers have to be fat and akward?

Height is a touchy issue w/ some. Some clubs will not sign anybody under 6 feet. The most often given reason. They don't pitch in the big leagues. Which is true for the most part. There are a little more than a handful of guys under 6 ft that have been more than successful, but on the whole they don't pitch there.

Now if you never draft/sign them then they never will.

They like size and velocity but that is not the end all. Ht and Wt, frame, build, mother and father (will wt be an issue), rear, shoulders, arms, hands, make-up on and off the field, arm action, pitchability, future role. They see a kid 18 yrs old. what will he look like when he is 25-28. If he is 5'10" and weighs 175 lbs, mother and father are skinny as rails, but he has command of three pitches but throws it 85-8 mph, there is very little chance he will pitch in the big leagues. Some guys make a big jump in velocity but it doesn't occur that often.

Guys like the high velocity because
high velocity simply means, that hitter has less time to react, and pitcher's margin for error is larger. Secondary stuff will likely be as good. 89-93 FB usually equates to 78-83 CB. Now off-speed stuff is another question. Has to have feel for it. Does it have depth. If he sells it w/ FB armspeed then it will more than likely have depth. Hitters hit armspeed not what you threw, or how much something broke or didn't break.

Angle or Plane is important. Don't get all worked up about the exact degree of angle. Down hill plane is preferred.

Alot of it is percentages, and the percentages favor big durable pitchers who throw hard. You go throw every 5th day and log in over 200 innings in 9 months and see how you hold up.

Fat won't cut it unless you are David Wells.

There is a big difference in the delivery of a tall Lanky pitcher. Why do you think they talk body type that they look for. The short body is usually accompanied by shorter arms and fingers. It called leverage and it translates into increased effort to launch the pitch.
That is not to say that there are not great shorter pitchers. I have a friend who has thrown 85+ since 15. About 5'7" with a very athletic body. He is a JR in a D1 NCAA school in the soutn now throwing 90+. He is a closer primarily because he runs out of enegy after 2 innings. he tends to get beat up after 2-3 innings. I am not suggesting his tongue is dragging on the ground but he loses the edge.
This is just my opinion. That stocky short pitcher can be very tough and I have seen many of these but they dont throw like a tall skinny lanky guy.

BHD, you didn't answer my question.

How much difference is there between the delivery of a lanky & supple 6'2" and a lanky & supple 5'11"?

It may not be fair but that’s the way it is. You’re preaching to the choir. The people that evaluate players and the factors they use to evaluate players are the only things that matter. If they like short hair I would get my son a hair cut and not even mention how good your son's hair looks. If they like collared shirts I would wear a shirt with a collar. If my son was a 5’11” pitcher and they have 6’ as a minimum, I would move on or change positions. (which in my son’s case is exactly what happened). You may disagree with the requirements, but you can’t change them. You’ll have to ask THEM why they like tall pitchers. Even if they have no valid answer, their opinion is the only thing that counts. But since it’s being discussed I will give you my opinion of how important I think height is when it comes to pitchers in the higher levels of baseball. The taller body is geometrically better suited to throwing a baseball with more velocity and the larger hands that come with the added height should be able to control the ball better than a shorter pitcher. Others have talked about the distance and the angle differences too. When you add up the increased heights, the increased “wingspan”, the delivery angle, the shorter distance, the larger hands, and the obvious geometric advantage, the taller player has a distinct advantage over the shorter player (in my opinion). My son was a weekend starter in the SEC and pitched in every series his sophomore year. He had a mid 90’s mph fastball with an excellent breaking ball and I suggested he stay off the mound simply because he was 6’ tall. Luckily the coach gave him the choice to either continue pitching or play a position his junior year of college and he quit pitching with height being one of the major factors.
Fungo

Sheesshhhh. How stupid were Pedro, Maddux, Hudson & Moyer! Those idiots should have never even tried to pitch.

Texan,

Here are some reasons that have been in scouting for a long time. My comments (FWIW) are below each.

1 - The smaller pitcher is more likely to break down.

IMO - This has turned out to be an "old wives" tale! All pitchers, all sizes, are breaking down. I don't see any evidence that heighth has anything to do with this!

2 - The smaller pitcher has less upside.

IMO - This is true to a certain extent, but shorter pitchers have proven to improve greatly once out of high school ie. Billy Wagner.

3 - The taller pitcher creates a better (downward) angle for all his pitches, especially breaking ball.

IMO - This is the major advantage of the taller pitcher. This advantage is hard to measure, but it certainly exists.

4 - The taller pitcher is more likely to master additional pitches with better movement because of hand size and afore mentioned angle to the plate.

IMO - There is an advantage, but many shorter pitchers have large hands.

5 - The taller pitcher is often the one who has more room to gain additional strength.

IMO - Part of the upside argument.

In addition (IMO) - Times are changing due to the number of 6-0 and shorter pitchers who have become very successful in the Big Leagues. There actually is a "slight advantage" in being a 5-10, 5-11 pitcher. They are in the minority!

If hitters faced all 6-5, 6-6 pitchers every AB for 10 straight games, then a 5-10 pitcher...everything would look different and force adjustments to be made. What you hit the best is what you see the most!

Now days, probably the most common in the Major Leagues is a 6-3 to 6-5 pitcher throwing a 90-92 mph fastball with some sink and/or run. It's a great pitch, but hitters see it a lot.

That said, talent is always #1 and size comes after that. Smaller pitchers will always be the exception. I just think we're likely to see more of them in the future.

RHP Jeremy Hellickson was drafted in the top 4 rounds last year and he is under 6-0. If he were 6-2, 6-3 he would have been a 1st rounder. I thought he should have been at least a 2nd rounder, anyway, based on his ability! Sometimes it takes a long time to change thinking. Pitchers like Hellickson might just change that thinking.

Now that was a well thought out post, PG. Looking at all sides with an open mind.

PG, A very good post. While you do point out that height (or lack of) is an additional challenge for the shorter pitcher, it's refreshing to know to that someone in your capacity does not eliminate that pitcher JUST because of his size. I wonder what the first football coach said to Tom Dempsey when he limped onto the football field and said he wanted to be a place-kicker or when Spud Webb stood up and said he wanted to try out for the basketball team.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
I wonder what the first ... coach said ... when Spud Webb stood up and said he wanted to try out for the basketball team.
Fungo

"Stand up and speak up, son. Oh. Sorry. Didn't know you were standing up already."

About 4 years ago at our Indoor Pitcher Catcher showcase in Cedar Rapids Iowa a senior from a small town in Wisconsin showed up.

We had heard he was pretty good, but being from a more remote part of Wisconsin not many had heard about him. He was not recruited by DI schools and none of the pro scouts knew him. He was a 3 sport star in addition to being a pitcher in high school.

At that time he was a 5-11 very lean RHP with a fast arm. A real fast arm! He also looked very competitive and showed a potentialy good breaking ball. His fastball was around 90 mph even in the middle of winter.

As luck would have it a friend and college recruiter at a DI power program called needing a pitcher. The rest is history, he quickly became a star as a freshman in the ACC. His soph year he became that colleges best pitcher.

He did have TJ surgery last year and red shirted repeating his Junior year this season. It will be interesting to see what happens with the draft. If he comes back strong as before we expect him to go in the first few rounds.

RHP Jason Berken, Depere, Wisconsin... Now listed at 6-0/200 at highly ranked Clemson University in South Carolina. Talent is always the #1 thing.

To PGStaff's point about talent always being #1:

In response to a question from a friend, I recently went to the MLB website to survey pitchers on all of the major league rosters. Approximately 600 pitchers total. 194 are listed at 6’ 1” or less. That’s just about one third. (Two-thirds of this group is right handed). And we all know that 1 to 2 inch “enhancements” are common. The 6’ 1” and under group includes:

Bartolo Colon; Francisco Rodriguez; Scot Shields; Brandon Backe; Roy Oswalt; Rich Harden; Huston Street; Mike Hampton; Tim Hudson; Ben Sheets; Jason Marquis; Sidney Ponson; Scott Eyre; Greg Maddux; Glendon Rusch; Scott Williamson; Casey Fossum; Russ Ortiz; Odalis Perez; Jeff Fassero; Paul Byrd; Jamie Moyer; Jarrod Washburn; Tom Glavine; Pedro Martinez; Billy Wagner; Victor Zambrano; Ramon Ortiz; Trevor Hoffman; Jake Peavy; Woody Williams; Rheal Cormier; Tom Gordon; Cory Lidle; Julio Santana; Randy Wolf; Salomon Torres; Keith Foulke; Ray King; Elmer Dessens; Kenny Rogers; Johan Santana.

I could have included a few more vets, but cumulatively this list represents some pretty good success and longevity. I would also add that a team with a fairly decent reputation for pitching know-how and success – the Atlanta Braves – lists 10 pitchers on a roster of 18 at 6’ 1” and under, including three under 6’. Do they know something?

Depending on your perspective, the list probably cuts both ways. Some will say that given the relatively small number of people who fall in the 6’ 2” and over category, that’s a pretty impressive percentage represented on major league pitching staffs. On the other hand, given the expressed preference for taller pitchers in the draft, it’s a bit surprising how many in the smaller category make it, and make it big.

I understand all the theories about trajectory and stamina and flexibility and leverage, but does success at the highest level tell us anything? I don’t see many Randy Johnsons in major league baseball. Through the years I’ve seen a bunch of 6’ 7”, 6’ 8” pitchers come through high school here in SoCal, but they almost never seem to succeed at the highest level. So at what point does all this lankiness and leverage reach a point of diminishing returns?

I guess what I’m saying is that I’ve heard all the arguments but I still don’t quite get it. And don’t get me wrong – I have a 14 year old son who is already over 6 feet so I’m not doing this to make myself feel better. Has professional baseball really run the numbers and found that size succeeds in the long run, or is this another wall to hide behind when a major prospect fizzles? I really don’t know the answer, but I think the question needs to be asked.