I know that there is an infinate amount of answers, but what should the position of the elbow be, specifically how much of an angle/how bent should it be? Any opinions would be greatfully apprecaited.

Andrew-

You need to be more specific i.e., at what time in the throwing sequence.

in the power position

Andrew-

quote:

in the power position

Please define "power position".

when both feet are on the ground after the stride. I thought that that was a "proper" term, but I guess I'm wrong.

Power position is the correct term.
90 degree and you should as part of your drills throw from the power position thrusting hard towards the plate with your hips coming through. It focuses on the hips rotating.
The towel drill is also from the power position.

Andrew-

You've described the "power position" exactly as it's been taught for years.

IMO that the forearm and the upper arm form an “L”, or an angle less than or equal to 90 deg at the elbow. The hand could be just inside the elbow.

I would go the other way, Cap. 90 degrees or just a little more (hand a littel outside the elbow). Any less and you are "shortening the stroke". E.g., there is less time for the arm to apply force to the ball.

And the height of the elbow should be such that it is level with the shoulders. If the elbow is low, you'll lose velocity. Too low & you can potentially do damage to the elbow.

Don't worry about the terminology, Andrew. There are so many different terms thrown around, I think Cap was just trying to be absolutely sure he understood your question.

quote:

I would go the other way, Cap. 90 degrees or just a little more (hand a littel outside the elbow). Any less and you are "shortening the stroke". E.g., there is less time for the arm to apply force to the ball.

IMO that the forearm and upper arm form a 90 deg or slightly less angle at the elbow for two reasons.

1) For rotating throwers, the shoulder-to-shoulder complex will be rotating around through release….the upper arm will be an almost straight-line extension of the shoulder complex. The forearm/hand will be trailing the lead of the elbow. An elbow angle set at 90 deg or less will allow the hand/ball to be accelerated through an arc of at least 90 deg during forearm fly-out to full arm extension at ball release. This equates to a longer distance that force is applied to accelerate the ball. The hand starting outside the elbow equates to a smaller arc (or shorter distance) for acceleration during final forearm fly-out extension. IMO that time is irrelevant.

2) For catapult, linear type throwers, it’s the same thing. The body stops and faces square to the target, the elbow, upper arm and shoulders are on the same axis and square to the target, and the forearm is laid back. As the angle of the elbow gets closer to 90 deg to the axis of the shoulders and upper arm, the more arc the forearm will use for the final acceleration phase to full forearm fly-out to ball release.

Good post Cap'n! It's also my opinion, based on my own personal exeprience, that an angle > 90 degrees (i.e. hand outside the elbow) can place additional stress on the throwing shoulder. This opinion is NOT based on fact but on my own personal experiences.

Jason

Cap, if the hand is inside the elbow (e.g., closer to the head) in the high L position, that is a shorter arc. What is the center axis of the arc? It should be a vertical axis running through center of the torso (e.g., the head). The closer the hand to the head, the shorter the arc. Simple geometry.

quote:

1) For rotating throwers, the shoulder-to-shoulder complex will be rotating around through release...2) For catapult, linear type throwers...

Would someone please explain the difference between these two styles to me?

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
The closer the hand to the head, the shorter the arc. Simple geometry.

Maybe I don't understand "simple geometry" but based on your argument wouldn't it then make sense just to have the arm completely extended?

Jason

Were that the only factor considered, yes.

But that is not the only factor, of course. If the arm were fully extended it would be horizontal to the ground. Hardly a good position to launch from.

And one area where I was not clear, I am not talking be outside the elbow by a lot.

But for a rotational type delivery, having the hand closer to the head (less than 90 degrees) does shorten the arc. Just go through the motion, you can easily see that for yourself.

Does that help any?

As I read your post again, Cap, I'm not sure we are referring to the same moment in time.

I am talking about the instant when the shoulders are still on a line from 2B to HP, at about the time of the stride foot landing. Often referred to as the "high L". From this point on, force is being applied to the ball in the direction of the pitch until release.

Seems that your description is at a later point in time, when the shoulders have rotated to square up.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Cap, if the hand is inside the elbow (e.g., closer to the head) in the high L position, that is a shorter arc. What is the center axis of the arc?...

Not really. If the hand is inside the elbow and moving backward for forearm flyout, seems to me it's increasing the distance over which to apply force.

I think you are considering the wrong axis at this point in the delivery.

quote:

But that is not the only factor, of course. If the arm were fully extended it would be horizontal to the ground. Hardly a good position to launch from.

Actually, the reality is that when many pitchers release the ball the forearm is pretty much horizontal to the ground.

This actually is a very efficient thing to do from the standpoint of mechanical efficiency (but problematic from the standpoint of injury prevention) because it maximizes the length of the lever arm.

F=MA. Constant mass and longer lever arm = more acceleration = more velocity.

quote:

I think you are considering the wrong axis at this point in the delivery.

There are two (vertical) axes of rotation when you are talking about a conventional pitcher. The first vertical axis of rotation is the rotation of the shoulders around the spine. The second vertical axis of rotation is the rotation of the forearm around the elbow.

Howeve, I believe that increasing the amount that the forearm rotates around the elbow increases the risk of injury.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:

quote:

But that is not the only factor, of course. If the arm were fully extended it would be horizontal to the ground. Hardly a good position to launch from.

Actually, the reality is that when many pitchers release the ball the forearm is pretty much horizontal to the ground.

This actually is a very efficient thing to do from the standpoint of mechanical efficiency (but problematic from the standpoint of injury prevention) because it maximizes the length of the lever arm.

F=MA. Constant mass and longer lever arm = more acceleration = more velocity.

I was not talking about at release, as I thought was very clear. I was talking about at the high L position.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Cap, if the hand is inside the elbow (e.g., closer to the head) in the high L position, that is a shorter arc. What is the center axis of the arc?...

Not really. If the hand is inside the elbow and moving backward for forearm flyout, seems to me it's increasing the distance over which to apply force.

I think you are considering the wrong axis at this point in the delivery.

I will agree that I don't think we are all on the same page. This would be much easier to discuss out on the field, where we could see & demonstrate.

The high L position is before the shoulders start to rotate as they will eventually square up with home. That was the original poster's question and is what I am addressing.